posted 06-12-99 02:16 AM ET        

No, I'm not claiming I wrote a new version. This is just the alternative alpha/faction edit I use when I want to play a 'builder' game instead of a 'conqueror' one. Given the imbalances between the two styles in the original game, I thought I could do a bit of rebalancing by myself. Seems to have worked, so far.

Anyone who wants a copy of the actual game files can email me. This is simply a condensed list of all the changes.

Updated 12.6.99

Goal:
* Restore some balance between 'builder' factions and 'conqueror' factions.
* Eliminate effective early game 'rushes', i.e any major attacks that occur within the first 40 turns of play.
* Lessen the effects of ICS (Infinite city sprawl)
* Rebalance factions in light of current tactical knowledge.
* Tune up midgame interest (a little bit, anyway).

Alpha.txt changes

* Starting energy reserves for each faction increased to 50
(allows factions with early social engineering - Morgan, Hive, Believers - to use this ability)
* Intrinsic base defense increased to 50% from 25% (VERY significant!)
* Hab Complex lifted to 8, Hab dome lifted to 15 (significant increase, esp for Morgan)
* Bonus vs. ship in port reduced to 50%
* Tech for improved Sea Mines changed to DocInit
(same tech as for Cruisers, makes sea bases properly viable when discovered)
* Tech for 3+ minerals changed to IndAuto
* Min turns between council reduced to 8
* Retool strictness loosened - now first 20 minerals are exempt (A.I Boost, adds to early game).
* Minerals from harvesting forest increased to 10
* Centauri Ecology no longer increases nutrients production in fungus (replaced by genesplicing)
* Tech for 3+ nutrients from terrain changed from Gene splicing to Biogenetics (occurs earlier)
* Terraforming: Condensor and Farm now require Centauri Ecology, Condensor cost now 10
(allows 'builder' factions to reap the rewards of early terraforming)
* Terraforming: Mines now require Industrial base to build
* Terraforming: Aquifier cost now 12
* Terraforming: Solar Array now requires Applied Physics to build
(further penalises the 'non builder' factions, gives logical prereqs)
* Terraforming: Borehole changed to 0,4,4 and 16 turns, requires Industrial Automation
(occurs later, balanced vs. rocky terrain + mineral patch or high altitude echelon mirror)
* Base square now 3,0,2 (city square produces NO minerals - partial ICS counter)
* Recycling tanks now gives 1,0,1
* Forest now gives 1,2,0
* Units: Prereq for hovertanks changed to Monopole Magnets, carrying capacity increased to foil level (available earlier in game, allows mass movement of ground units)
* Needle jets now cost 12, and are renamed as Fighters
* Copters now move 4 and cost 14 (balancing multiple attack ability)
* Missiles now move 12
* Terraforming package/Former unit now has no prereq technology (see above changes)
* Colony pod cost reduced to former equivilent
* Clean reactor now requires Superconductor
(occurs earlier, balances new mineral rules, but at cost of special abilities)
[* Particle Impactor and Gatling laser strength each reduced by 1 point
(attack strength now 3 and 4 respectively !BUG! )]
* Super former ability made more expensive
* Polymorphic encryption cost reduced to zero
* Plasma Shard prereq changed to frictionless surfaces
(later in game, no longer so close to Fusion lasers)
* Facilities: Perimeter defense, Biology lab each reduced to 40 minerals, Childrens Creche and
Rec Commons reduced to 30 minerals each, Recycling tanks reduced to 20 minerals.
* Projects: Universal Translator requires Polymorphic software to build, cost now 300 minerals
(occurs much earlier, artifacts ability now relevant on standard maps)
* Fundamentalist politics prereq changed to Social Psych
* Librarian level renamed Engineer

** 'Free' terraforming options are aquifier, forest, road, level terrain, clear fungus

Labels.txt
* 'Gaian Psi' changed to 'Faction Psi' for new University and Spartan mind power adjustment.
(This is less than 2/5th of the way down the list)

Help.txt
* Recycling tanks description made consistant with new rules.
* Borehole info changed to 4m, 4e, as above.

ALL FACTIONS:
* Gain an extra former from the beginning (added Unit, 1) to each file
* Now start with 50 energy (from alpha.txt changes)

BELIEVE.txt

Vision:
The Believers, much maligned for their ugly leader and poor research, never the less are a faction favoured by skilled players for their rush tactics and supremely effective probe teams.

Little has been altered, save to bring them a little more back into the public domain (free morale and probe for fundamentalist), and to scale back slightly their ability to create huge legions within the first 50 turns.

Changes:
* Added 'Impunity, Fundamentalist' (no research penalty from this government choice)
* Benefit from change of fundamentalist prereq to Social psych (alpha.txt change)
* Changed 'social, ++support 'social, +support'

Datalinks Info:
^+25% bonus when attacking, from strength of belief
^+1 PROBE: {Devout followers difficult to brainwash}
^+1 SUPPORT: {Citizens eager to defend faith}
^-2 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
^-1 PLANET: {Believe Planet is their promised land}
^Suffers no negative effects from Fundamentalist politics
^Accumulates NO research points until MY 2110
^{May not use Knowledge value in Social Engineering}

GAIANS.txt
* Added 'Unit, 7' (free alien artifact at beginning)

No datalinks changes

HIVE.txt

Vision:
The faction most in need of rebalancing, the Hive was easily the most powerful of the original factions, especially after the first patch.

The Hive has been changed to favour a more population based approach to planet domination, with the hugely advantagous +1 INDUSTRY removed entirely. The original 'Enhanced Communist China' vision has been restored - a huge, hardworking, but somewhat unhappy population in a brutal but philosophical ditatorship.

Changes:
* Added 'Drone, 4' (reflecting Yang's unwilling workforce) - taken from Uni
* Removed +1 Industry (massively unbalancing factor)
* Increased Growth to +2 (allows population boom w. Planned and creche)
* Added 'Pop, -2' (hab restrictions lifted to 10 per base) - taken from Peace.

Datalinks info:
^+2 GROWTH: {Rapid population increase}
^-2 ECONOMY: {Little political freedom}
^Disciplined followers: {Efficiency cannot fall below zero}
^Underground bunkers: {Free PERIMETER DEFENSE at each base}
^Close habitation: {may exceed hab restrictions by 2}
^Hardship: {Extra DRONE for every 4 citizens}
^{May not use Democratic politics.}

MORGAN.txt

Vision: Definitely the weakest of the original factions, morgan has been upgraded to a more reasonable level of unbridled capitalist power. Now able to maintain a normal army, and with no real dependance on outside trade for energy production, Morgan's only worry is a crippling lack of growth.

* Changed starting tech to Industrial economics (allows Free market immediately)
* Added 'Facility, 7' (free energy bank at each base)
* Increased starting energy to 200 (balance against change in alpha.txt to initial energy)
* Changed 'Social, -Support' to 'Social, -Growth'

Datalinks info:
^TECH: {Industrial Economics}

^+1 ECONOMY: {Industrial conglomerate}
^-1 GROWTH: {Hedonistic lifestyle}
^+1 COMMERCE: {Increases value of treaties & pacts}
^Free ENERGY BANK at each base
^Begins with 200 extra energy credits.
^Lavish Housing: {Need HAB COMPLEX for bases to exceed size 5}
^{May not use Planned Economics.}

PEACE.txt

Vision: While not actually weak in the original, the PeaceKeepers weren't much more successful than the modern day U.N when it came to actual conflict. They gain 2 new abilities, a sharetech upgrade (reflecting their global influence and the original vision for the 'Keepers of Wisdom'), and a semi-immunity to negative support, making democracy a less painful option than previously.

* Added 'Sharetech, 3' (gains any tech owned by three other factions)
* Added 'Robust, Support' (support penalties reduced)
* Removed 'Pop, -2' (no extra population) - given to Hive

Datalinks info
^-1 EFFICIENCY: {U.N. style bureaucracy}
^Intellectual Elite: {Extra TALENT for every four citizens}
^Military readiness: {Support penalties halved}
^Unity Archivists: {Gains any TECHNOLOGY known by three other factions}
^Receives DOUBLE votes in elections for Planetary Governor and Supreme Leader.
^{May not use Police State Politics.}

SPARTANS.txt

Vision: Somewhat altered, the spartans lose their crippling industry penalty in exchange for slightly lowered morale and a new Psi combat penalty. A powerful military machine, especially when faced with human rivals, but prone to panic when confronted with the alien terrors of Planet.

* Changed 'Social, ++Morale', to 'Social, +Morale' (slightly weaker on defense)
* Added 'Psi, -25' (Psi combat penalty)
* Removed 'Social, -Industry' (no industry penalty)

Datalinks info:
^+1 MORALE: {Well-armed survivalist movement}
^+1 POLICE: {Highly disciplined followers}
^Prototype units do not cost extra minerals.
^Fear of Planet: {-25% penalty to Psi combat}
^{May not use Wealth value in Social Engineering.}

UNIV.txt

Vision: Not quite as dark and hostile as the original university, this version offers a more academic vision of the UoP - good research, poor security, a reluctance to support military endeavors, and a new resistance to psychic attack. This new benefit adds a new dimension to the UoP, and allows a green university to better combat its religious and military rivals.

Changes:
* Added 'Social, -Support' to list of abilities (disadvantage to having large army)
* Removed Drone, 4 (incompatible with new support penalty, bad anyway)
* Added 'Psi, 20' (+20 bonus to Psi combat)

Datalinks info:
^+20% bonus to Psi Combat, from intellectual discipline
^+2 RESEARCH: {Brilliant scientists}
^-1 SUPPORT: {Researchers skeptical of military worth}
^-2 PROBE: {Academic networks vulnerable to infiltration}
^Military readiness: {Support penalties halved}
^Free NETWORK NODE at every base
^One BONUS TECH at beginning of game
^{May not use Fundamentalist Politics.}

END OF LIST.

If good for nothing else, I hope this will reopen some debate on the merits of each faction, and the general design of the game - heavily suited to conqueror rush type tactics.

posted 06-12-99 02:41 PM ET            

Did you test this thoroughly? I like to play as a builder and I like your adjustments but I have the german version so I would have to change it myself.
And before I do this, I'd like to know if it really is balanced.
What differences do you notice in gameplay?

posted 06-13-99 04:43 AM ET            

So, can you add a Secret Project giving all my bases an Aerospace Complex? Or change the Bulk Matter Transmitter to something reasonable (maybe Psi Gates at all bases?)

And I want ...

Well, thanks anyway. I wonder how a gaming company (read, Firaxis or Activision) debates such issues as ICS, etc. I marvel at your (current) solution. First rate!

posted 06-13-99 07:32 AM ET            

i too decided to play a builder game except here is what i did.

i gave every faction SHARETECH, 1
which means that anytime anyone discovers a new technology EVERY other faction gets it also. so everyone has the same tech. i started out on a huge map and as soon as i started i opened the scenario editor and i selected faction diplomacy and set it where every faction had a pact and commlinks for every other faction and set this as permanent. the only way to win the game is by an economic or transcendence victory. and since the computer won't attack i also have pledged to myself not to attack or release mindworms into the wild close to an AI base or to mind control their cities. the only way to win is by pure building.

i started the game as morgan on librarian and right now Yang has a fairly significant lead on all of us. the year is 2232. Yang is first. I am second with about 80% of his power bar total. deidra is neck and neck with me. behind her is Lal. then the belivers. just a little ways behind them is the spartans, then in last place is the UoP. in three years i will discover the coloning vats. primarily one of the reasons that yang is so far ahead is that he started right beside the moonsoon jungle. i can't figure out why the UoP is doing so poorly. they started out all to themselves their problem is they just haven't expanded enough.

morgan-15 bases, largest base size 7
Sps, the Human Genome Project, the Merchant exchange, the Empath Guild, the Virtual World, and the Living refinery

yang-23 bases, largest base size 7
SPs, the command nexus and the maritime control center

gaians-19 bases, largest base size 6
SPs, the planetary transit system

Peacekeepers-14 bases, largest base size 10
Sps, the planetary datalinks, the ascetic virtue

believers-6 bases, largest base size 7
SPs, the weather paradigm, the hunter-seeker algorithim

spartans-11 bases, largest base size 6
SPs, the citizens defense force

UoP-8 bases, largest base size 6
SPs, none

posted 06-13-99 07:46 AM ET            

the belivers seem like they are even more powerful earlier fundamentalism and no penalty for it

the gaians about the same

hive seem like they are more balanced now and also more fun to play

the morgans are even more of an economic powerhouse now with the adition of a free energy bank at each and every base but if they ever choose green economics (but why would they?!) they will experiance ZERO polulation growth

the peace keepers have really been powered up...maybe too poperful now

the spartans losing 1 point of moral is no big deal and gaining the one point of industry really helps...but the -25 percent combat modifier against mind worms would really leave them vulnerable to an early green rush

posted 06-13-99 08:55 AM ET            

The Centauri Teraforming Corporation

vision:
the CTC is a society of engineers that their main focus is to develop infrastructure on planet and attract colonist they are building the road to the future

i wanted to make playing them as unique an experiance as possible that is why i decided on giving them four free terraformers to start with. this can really give them an early edge in developing the planet

LEADER: {President John Ferris}
BACKGROUND: {President and CEO, Caterpillar Construction}
AGENDA: {Complete terraforming of Planet}
TECH: {Centauri Ecology}

+2 EFFICENCY: {Even their society is a marvel of engineering}
-3 MORALE: {Citizens are workers not soldiers.}
TERRAFORMING: {Raise/lower only takes half as long}
Begins with 4 extra formers.
Receives one extra energy at every base from INTEREST.
{May not use Fundamentalist Politics.}

blurb:
I've always said that with enough bulldozers
you can do anything. I know that it might take another
hundred years, but look how far we've came since we
first got here, and just imagine how far we can go.

-- President John Ferris,
"Centauri Terraforming Corporation

The Empire of Centaur

vision:
i conceived of a monarchy establishing a new empire on Alpha Centauri. coming from a long unbroken line of autocrats the Empire would be a society based upon slave labor, and the benefits of gained by it. and while the vast majority of people are oppressed their would be a small noble class that enjoy a life of privledge

they recieve benefits that makes them first class at maintaining order and fielding a huge army however they are not the greatest researching faction and their army will probably be equipped with older weapons

LEADER: {Ishmail Rhajza Shah}
BACKGROUND: {Heir to Elija Rezjia Shah}
AGENDA: {Social Order, Prosperity}
TECH: {Doctrine: Loyalty}

+1 POLICE: {Society is prepared for slave revolt}
+1 SUPPORT: {Benefit of slave labor}
+1 INDUSTRY: {Use of forced labor}
-1 EFFICENCY: {Supervision of workers lowers output}
-1 RESEARCH: {Only ruling class receives an education}
Extra TALENT for every six citizens: {Prosperous Ruling Class}
Extra DRONE for every three citizens: {Enslaved subclass yearning for freedom}
{May not use Democratic Politics.}

blurb:
It is my intention that everything will run.
I will make all the parts fits and this society shall be one
where things get done.

-- Ishmail Rhajza Shah,
"The Affairs of State"

The Morman Pilgrimage

vision:
a breakaway group of mormans. they all have a strong belief that unites them, and just as many persecuted religion have done before they are traveling to a new land free of presecution. a land that that has yet to develop. they intend to transform the soul of the Alpha Centauri settlers just as the CTC intends to tansform the land.

a primarily builder faction completely opposed to war, achieving a large population is reletively easy to do with their growth bonus and with their extra talents its also reletively easy to maintain control in times of peace

LEADER: {Prophet Felicity Young}
BACKGROUND: {Morman Free Zone, Leader of the Morman Exodus}
AGENDA: {Life of Religious Freedom}
TECH: {Social Psych}

-3 POLICE: {Mormans are strict pacifists}
-1 MORALE: {Mormans are unwilling to fight}
+1 PROBE: {Mormans are steadfast in their beliefs}
+2 GROWTH: {Believe in having as many children as possible}
May exceed HAB COMPLEX population requirements by 2.
Extra TALENT for every four citizens: {Citizens find great joy in their beliefs}
{May not use Power value in Social Engineering.}

blurb:
Even with evil men doing evil deeds, it is not not right to destroy them for
they are also God's children. Others might not tolerate us but we must tolerate
them, for to do otherwise would be a violation of our faith. Now it is time for our
exodus, it is to leave our Egypt. It is time for us to travel to our Promised Land.

-- Prophet Felicity Young,
"Visions of Hope"

The Republic of Earth (RoE)

vision:
based on a dark vision of earth where the cold war doesn't end and a reaganesq america begins preperations to fight and WW3. west europe and is more or less subjugated by an increasingly militaristic american which then renames itself the Republic of Earth (RoE) the soviet union is justifiably afraid of an all out invasion and continues to arm itself for the inevitable final showdown with RoE forces. the UN with strong leadership from the neutral countries especially in the newly emerging republics from africa, and non Soviet asia, and support from south america (which is torn apart from RoE/USSR faceoff) takes it upon themselves to launch the Colonization effort of Alpha Centauri. years after the Unity is launched RoE orgnizes it's own Alpha Centauri effort, the RoE expeditionary force whose objective is to bring the colonist on Alpha Centauri under the power of the RoE. the RoE expeditionary force launches on the eve of world war three which the pentagon is confidant it can win.

THE ULTIMATE FACTION! it has everything a conquer or a builder could want, except because they rely on reinforcements from earth their growth is terrible. a perfect one city challenge faction

LEADER: {General Samus Aryn}
BACKGROUND: {Earth, RoE Expeditionary Force Commander}
AGENDA: {Reunification with Earth}
TECH: {Applied Physics, Mobility}

+25% attack bonus
+1 ECONOMY: {Trade routes to earth}
+2 INDUSTRY: {Superior manufactoring techniques}
IMPUNITY to wealth social choice
-5 GROWTH: {Reinforcements come from Earth}
Prefab Bases: {Free RECYCLING TANKS at each base}
{May not use Green Economics.}

blurb:
Hours from now our fourty year journey will come to an end, and in the coming
days we will face many challenges, but even in hardship remember why we
are here. Humanity has finally put aside it differences on Earth, and we
have been choosen to accomplish mankind's greatest feat yet, the complete
unification of all people under one banner.
The banner of the Republic of Earth!

posted 06-13-99 10:29 PM ET            

Expansion is now MUCH simpler, possibly one of the biggest changes in effect is the reduced price for colony pods. I no longer worry too much about losing a single, expensive pod so much. BUT, the minerals change for new cities makes this work - cities require support and infrastructure to grow, so just hammering out a bunch of pods and sticking them anywhere isn't a viable tactic.

I'm not totally sure about balance, but I can say that the game is a lot more balanced than it was previously. However, it's all straight building - if you get Miriam or Santiago nearby, be prepared to use all your special abilities to hold them off.

Korn459: Thanks for your comments. Responses:

* Both Miriam and Santiago are quite powerful under the new rules, but this seems to be balanced (I'm a one man Q.A, so how can I possibly know for sure?) by the new mineral rules, which require at least SOME investment in early infrastructure. Also, with the base defense improvement and the cheap sensors, 1-2-1 defensive units are now quite effective in stopping a recon rover charge. You still have to build military units, but at least a policy of less than 100% attack will work now.

* Santiago finds the worms very troubling - a green rush will indeed turn the tables against her quite heavily. Moreover, the worms will serve to shut down her inital attacks against the human factions as well. However, mindworms don't make great units to attack well defended bases with (50% + 25% for sensors) - and her +1 morale eats up half the penalty anyway.

* Both the UoP and the Hive are a lot more fun to play. I found the Hive expanded quite exceptionally fast, especially when running over the top of believer territory, but then suffered a sudden and virtual complete crash in all my bases - those drones, combined with the size of my captured empire, stopped me dead in my tracks.

The UoP is now probably the best learner faction of all, with it's resistance to native life. That support penalty is a killer, though - a police state UoP is still a common thing.

* I can gurantee that the new Peacekeepers aren't overbalanced - the reason being that they don't get ANY special advantages. Unlike the UoP, Morgan, the Believers, the Hive, etc, their skills only stop them from losing ground, and they don't get any special tactics, other than the governorship, which Lal is still virtually guranteed, and a slight freedom from the need to build drone infrastructure.

* Morgan is VERY good when able to use his social engineering to maximum effect and when able to target a single opponent, especially with probe warfare. However, he does tend to suffer when fighting on more than one front - and that growth penalty turns out to be more painful, along with those small bases, than it first seems. Money is a limited power, so think of him as the spell caster faction - powerful when fully charged, but lacking muscle (read: population). MORGAN CANNOT ENTER POPULATION BOOM.

* I like your Mormon faction - with a bit less emphasis on the exact religion I would favour it's inclusion in SMACX (SNAX? Heh heh - it will be done), as a kind of 'happy' believers. Not all religion involves spying and ruthlessly smiting the unbelievers (though that's also a lot of fun). You might also add a free rec commons instead of the Hab complex expansion, just to hammer home the advantage (even add a population restriction, maybe).

But change the explination for your growth rate. It's a bit too - well, it would lead to an obvious faction insult along the lines of 'though you may spend all your time shagging like rabbits, Felicity...'.

And be careful with your other factions - I don't favour the inclusion of industry bonuses for factions under any circumstances, unless VERY heavily penalised in other areas (like DRONE, 3, and a -SUPPORT penalty at the very least. ++INDUSTRY should not be included under any circumstances).

posted 06-13-99 10:41 PM ET            

Economy Social Engineering
Green:
+2 Planet, +1 Effic
-2 Growth

Values social engineering:
Power:
+2 Morale, +2 Support
-1 Industry, -1 Economy

Knowledge:
+2 Effic, +2 Research
-2 Support, -2 Probe

Wealth:
+1 Economy, +1 Industry
-1 Morale, -1 Growth

Rational:
* The Green/Wealth economy now gives -3 growth (pop stagnation) for all factions, unless under a democractic government.

* The Wealth/Fundamentalist combo now gives an ideal peacetime setting for probe warfare, especially with a Planned economy.

* The Knowledge/Democracy combo now gives a Paradigm economy with NO interest in military support and a probe weakness. The odd but useful Fundamentalist/Knowledge combination now has a support penalty, instead of just giving a 'free' +1 Morale, +1 Effic.

* Democracy/Green now only gives a 'free' unsupported paradigm economy to the Gaians.

posted 06-14-99 05:34 AM ET            

Thanks,
A Builder forced into Conquerer tactics

posted 06-14-99 08:33 AM ET            

How would you feel about having it at Apolyton and/or Sidgames for download?

Or maybe dong so after a period of feedback from people who have played with it?

Please give it some thought.

posted 06-14-99 09:38 AM ET            

The zero minerals at base square is harsh, but especially with no minerals for recycling tanks. We are going to have lots of units disbanding for lack of minerals. Why can't recycling tanks have one mineral? Please?

posted 06-14-99 10:30 AM ET            

responce to your responces:

i just reread your factions and in light of the peace keepers losing their +2 population i guess that brings them in line

about your rule changes...why exactly did you give wealth a -1 growth penalty? and i'm also afraid that green only providing +1 efficency might really hurt the factions that use police/green if you don't want to allow faction to get a free paradigm economy maybe you should make democracy only provide +1 efficency. i think dem/planned is a more unbalancing factor in the game than police/green. another question does the cloning vats get rid of all of power's negative (both industry and economy?)

also i took your comments into account about my factions and i have tweaked the stats some

new stats

The Empire of Centaur

LEADER: {Ishmail Rhajza Shah}
BACKGROUND: {Heir to Elija Rezjia Shah}
AGENDA: {Social Order, Prosperity}
TECH: {Doctrine: Loyalty}

+1 POLICE: {Society is prepared for slave revolt}
+1 SUPPORT: {Benefit of slave labor}
+1 INDUSTRY: {Use of forced labor}
-1 EFFICENCY: {Supervision of workers lowers output}
-2 RESEARCH: {Only ruling class receives an education}
Extra TALENT for every six citizens: {Prosperous Ruling Class}
Extra DRONE for every three citizens: {Enslaved subclass yearning for freedom}
{May not use Democratic Politics.}

Republic of Earth (RoE)

LEADER: {General Samus Aryn}
BACKGROUND: {Earth, RoE Expeditionary Force Commander}
AGENDA: {Reunification with Earth}
TECH: {Applied Physics, Mobility}

+25% attack bonus
+1 ECONOMY: {Trade routes to earth}
+2 INDUSTRY: {Superior manufactoring techniques}
IMPUNITY to wealth social choice
-5 GROWTH: {Reinforcements come from Earth}
Prefab Bases: {Free RECYCLING TANKS at each base}
{May not use Planned Economics.}

the empire is an excellent conquering faction but inefficency will hurt their economy and it will further hamper their research which is now a -2. they really need to use police state to be operating at full power. the Republic of earth didn't get a stat change but they can no longer choose planned economics, so they now in the early game with democratic/creches their growth is a meager -1 and with democratic/eudamonic/creches/golden age they are still only at plus three growth. and besides after having thought about from a story perspective and not a game perspective if the RoE forces were an army launched by a nation determined on defeating communism why woul they turn communistic once they landed on a new planet. also remember they have a -5 growth which means zero population growth until the build creches and change to democratic. i think that more than makes up for their bonuses

posted 06-14-99 05:20 PM ET            

And I also have a 'rich map of planet' map made as well - it includes the Borehole cluster and a few other minor additions - planet peak and the deep sea vents to name two.

What can you tell me about Sidgames? I think I visited their pirates site once.

DD: No, I didn't find that happening much in testing. Your basic tactic is to build roads, sensors, and forest at the start, which usually provides enough minerals to get by. The recycling tanks are already good enough for this version (the +1 food and +1 energy takes the city square to 4 0 4 - a major boost to growth. And they only cost 20 minerals). Besides, one of my main aims while balancing was to hamper the ICS tactic - Infinite city sprawl - the advantage of having 5 size one bases as against 1 size 5 base (i.e 10 squares production vs. 5). In the SNAC mod, you really feel the power of those size 6 cities.

I'm happy to confirm that the Hive is great fun, and not too powerful, under the new rules. Moreover, I've seen some HUGE A.I base clusters with the cheap pods, so rampaging through the Believers in 15 turns is going to be difficult. On the current map (rich map of planet, transcendance), as the Hive, I have three significant opponents, Miriam, Santiago, and Deirdre, all of whom have 12+ bases.

And I always felt that Boreholes were over powered at 6 6 anyway. 4 4 doesn't seem to be that popular though - but seriously, how much more mineral production can you get by digging 1000kms below the surface than you can by going 10kms?

Korn469: True, about the RoE. But that's going to be a VERY slow start to the game, sitting around waiting for ethical calculus and building a hab complex. Maybe you should adjust the starting techs to the E.C prereqs? Or simply give them Ethical Calculus straight off - like the Hive with Doc: Loyalty or (SNAC) Morgan and Free Market.

And I'd like to see -1 Probe instead of -1 Effic for the Centaurs, and no support bonus (as a rule, It pays to limit your Soc adjustments to ideally 5 and no more than 6 points - thats all you can see on the Soc Eng screen faction display.) The Probe -1 helps to gurantee that the -2 research is a real penalty, and I'm very wary of support bonuses in combination with industry ones. As well, your most likely Government choice is police state - which will supply your support and effic penalties anyway.

As for my Soc changes, I'm interested in your views. As I stated in the list, the -1 Growth for wealth is there to mess up the odd combo of Green/Wealth - which, with this addition, makes for zero population growth unless under democracy (which is logical). It also slows morgan down too, at -2 growth for this social choice, he pays for his +1 energy/square. It also allows fundy to cancel the -1 morale, with the Fundy/Wealth combo a tactic I enjoy and wish to encourage.

Cloning vats does remove the penalties from the power social choice (and thought control, I think). I like having -1 Econ there - right now, there isn't ANY SMAC social choice that gives you an econ penalty.

I'll try Demo with only +1 Effic and green with +2 - that would probably suit Gaian players a lot more as well. And it sort of makes sense for the Peacekeepers.

posted 06-15-99 02:32 AM ET            

actually the RoE are a human only faction that is just really fun to play around with. the computer always just has one base and spends an infinite amount of minerals on a colony pod that is never going to appear...and they don't realy need population
they are excellent at overrunning all their opponents...rally try them out once they can be quite alot of fun

as for the centaurs police/green/knowledge SE under normal rules would give them make them way to powerful so i'm droppong their industry bonus and taking their research penalty back dwn to -1 so they are now

posted 06-15-99 03:04 AM ET            

even on a second look at your rule changes i don't see much wrong with them. but here are some suggestions

1. ability to build roads now requires doctrine:mobility

2. base square now give 3-0-1

3. recycling tanks now give 1-0-2

4. bore holes now cost 18 and give 0-5-4

5. airbases now cost 8

why did you drop forest squares energy bonus?

also here are some suggestions for your values

wealth:
+1 economy, +1 industry
-1 morale, -1 support

the -1 support hurts the army even more than a -1 growth

knowledge:
+2 research, +1 efficency
-2 probe, -2 police

freedom of thoughts would hurt a dictatorship and not necesarily the military

power is good
and i leave green with +2 efficency and make democracy only have +1 effiency

korn469

posted 06-16-99 04:31 AM ET            

why do you wanna encourage fundamentalist/wealth
and think green/wealth is a strange combo?

korn469

posted 06-16-99 05:11 AM ET            

2. No, no less that 2 energy for bases. A faction under -3 economy is supposed to lose 2 energy per turn from each base - I don't want to test SMAC's stability on this. Also, it makes the lack of energy from forest more palitable.

3. I'll definitely consider this. I just love to see those big energy bonuses on the base squares (I know this was supposed to link to point 2, but it has value of itself, I feel).

4. I feel boreholes should have the same mineral/energy output. I guess a reasonable compromise is 0 5 5 and 20 - still less than the best values of mines and solar collectors.

5. Will definitely look into this.

Other points:
Energy from forests - I wanted to make a more stark choice between forest terrain, farm with mine, and farm with solar collector. The original forests were a bit too 'nice' - you could virtually neglect all terraforming in favour of planting them. Now, you'll find your energy running dry and your research at a standstill unless you build some collectors - or start investing heavily in probes. And the energy thing bothered me anyway - what are they doing, burning wood to generate electricity?

Wealth/Fundy is a great combo to run probe teams off, as you get money to do things (esp as morgan) and can use the probes to negate the -2 research. But the -2 morale currently spoils it (as well, I think Morgan does a bit of preaching in his stuff as well - fundy wealth seems to fit this faction perfectly).

I tried Demo at only 1 point of efficiency and HATED it. You definitely need +2 +2 to balance the crippling -2 support. Green, on the other hand, only gets -2 growth - not a huge penalty, given +2 planet and all. AND having only +1 effic will stop the Gaians from getting a paradim economy from a single setting - also good.

Your point about -2 police -2 probe for Knowledge and -1 morale -1 support for Wealth is excellent - but can cause problems. Free market currently suffers the huge -5 police, so it might be worth linking this penalty to Knowledge (i.e reduce Freemarket to -3 police). And -1 support negates the rest of my arguement about Wealth slowing Growth - but on balance it seems to make more sense (in addition, you don't get the terrible -4 support from these two choices - a much needed improvement).

So, I'll concede the values choices to you, but I'm not changing the +1 effic for Green.

SNAC 1.1 Soc settings

FREE MARKET +2 Econ, -3 Planet, -3 Police
GREEN +2 Planet, +1 Effic, -2 Growth
POWER +2 Morale, +2 Support, -1 Econ, -1 Industry
KNOWLEDGE +2 Effic, +2 Research, -2 Police, -2 Probe
WEALTH +1 Econ, +1 Industry, -1 Morale, -1 Support.

Which makes power and wealth virtual mirror images of each other - not such a bad thing, I guess.

BUG NOTE:
SNAC 1.0 has a bug in the Hive file - POP, -2 should be POPULATION, -2. Currently, the habitation limit doesn't work - very much to my irritation, in the middle of a large, Hive game, and having beaten off the drones only to find that I should have built that hab complex 5 turns ago.

posted 06-16-99 03:54 PM ET            

i was reading the thread about increasing defensive vaules and in light of that could you try in the latest version of SNAC

sensors now provide +50% to defense

posted 06-17-99 12:45 AM ET            

Updated 17.6.99

Goal:
* Restore some balance between 'builder' factions and 'conqueror' factions.
* Eliminate effective early game 'rushes', i.e any major attacks that occur within the first 40 turns of play.
* Lessen the effects of ICS (Infinite city sprawl)
* Rebalance factions in light of current tactical knowledge.
* Tune up midgame interest

Alpha.txt changes

* Starting energy reserves for each faction increased to 50
(allows factions with early social engineering - Morgan, Hive, Believers - to use this ability)
* Intrinsic base defense increased to 50% from 25% (matches bunker value, counters Psi attack)
* Hab Complex lifted to 8, Hab dome lifted to 15 (significant increase, esp for Morgan)
* Bonus vs. ship in port reduced to +50%
* Infantry versus base increased to +50%
* Defend with Sensor array bonus increased to +50%
* Psi Combat bonus for +Planet increased to 20% (very significant factor, esp for freemarket)
* Tech for improved Sea Mines changed to DocInit
(same tech as for Cruisers, makes sea bases properly viable when discovered)
* Tech for 3+ minerals changed to IndAuto
* Min turns between council reduced to 8
* Retool strictness loosened - now first 20 minerals are exempt (A.I Boost, adds to early game).
* Minerals from harvesting forest increased to 10
* Artillery damage versus unit in open limited to 90%
* Centauri Ecology no longer increases nutrients production in fungus (replaced by genesplicing)
* Tech for 3+ nutrients from terrain changed from Gene splicing to Biogenetics (occurs earlier)
* Terraforming: Condensor and Farm now require Centauri Ecology, Condensor cost now 10
(allows 'builder' factions to reap the rewards of early terraforming)
* Terraforming: Mines now require Industrial base to build
* Terraforming: Aquifier cost now 10, Forest cost now 2.
* Terraforming: Solar Array now requires Applied Physics to build
(further penalises the 'non builder' factions, gives logical prereqs)
* Terraforming: Borehole changed to 0,5,5 and 20 turns, requires Industrial Automation
(occurs later, more balanced vs. rocky terrain + mineral patch or high altitude echelon mirror)
* Base square now 3,0,2 (city square produces NO minerals - partial ICS counter)
* Recycling tanks now gives 2,0,2 (for standard base value of 5 0 4!)
* Forest now gives 1,2,0
* Units: Prereq for hovertanks changed to Monopole Magnets, carrying capacity increased to foil
level (available earlier in game, allows mass movement of ground units)
* Needle jets now cost 12, and are renamed as Fighters
* Copters now move 4 and cost 14 (balancing multiple attack ability)
* Missiles now move 12
* Terraforming package/Former unit now has no prereq technology (see above changes)
* Colony pod cost reduced to former equivilent
* Clean reactor now requires Superconductor
(occurs earlier, balances new mineral rules, but at cost of special abilities)
* Super former ability made more expensive
* Polymorphic encryption cost reduced to zero
* High Morale and AAA tracking costs changed to -1, now costs zero for defender units
(base defenders now have Trance, AAA tracking, Com Jammer, and High Morale options for free!)
* Nerve Gas pods cost changed to -2, now increases directly with weapon value
* Plasma Shard prereq changed to frictionless surfaces
(later in game, no longer so close to Fusion lasers)
* Facilities: Perimeter defense, Biology lab each reduced to 40 minerals, Childrens Creche and
Rec Commons now 30 minerals each, Recycling tanks 40 minerals
* Projects: Universal Translator requires Polymorphic software to build, cost now 300 minerals
(occurs much earlier, artifacts ability now relevant on standard maps)
* Social: Fundamentalist politics prereq changed to Social Psych
* Social: Freemarket penalty reduced to -3 Planet, -3 Police
(balanced by new Psi bonus/penalty for Planet)
* Social: Power values penalty changed to -Industry, -Economy
* Social: Knowledge values changed to +2 Effic, +2 Research, -2 Police, -2 Probe
* Social: Wealth values penalty changed to -Morale, -Support
* Social: Industry and Planet bonuses swapped between Cybernetic and Eudaimonic Future Society
* Planet mindworm capture rates removed (since not true...)
* Librarian level renamed Engineer

** 'Free' terraforming options are aquifier, forest, road, level terrain, clear fungus

Labels.txt
* 'Gaian Psi' changed to 'Faction Psi' for new University and Spartan mind power adjustment.
(This is less than 2/5th of the way down the list)

Help.txt
* Recycling description changed to following:
Increases $LINK<NUTRIENT=41> and $LINK<ENERGY=43>
output of base square by 2.
* Social Engineering description values changed to match new values
* Description of effects of Planet rating changed to following:
{PLANET} represents your society's sensitivity to the $LINK<ecology of
Planet=26>.
Planet rating also has a major effect on Psi Combat, as used by
$LINK<Mind Worms=30008> and other native life on Planet. As well, a
low score indicates that ecological damage will occur more quickly.
* Sensor array combat bonus changed to new value (+50%) given in Alpha.txt
* Borehole info changed to 5m, 5e, as above
* Hab Complex and Hab Dome limits changed to new values
* Infantry chassis info updated, bonus value increased to +50%, as above
* Needle Jet Chassis renamed as Fighter, as above
* Following lines added to AAA tracking, High Morale, Hypnotic Trance and Com Jammer info
^
This ability is free to Defenders, i.e those units with an armour
value greater than their weapon strength.
* Following text added to Polymorphic Encryption info:
"Once discovered, this ability can be used on any unit for no cost."

ALL FACTIONS:
* Gain an extra former from the beginning (added Unit, 1) to each file
* Now start with 50 energy (from alpha.txt changes)

BELIEVE.txt

Vision:
The Believers, much maligned for their ugly leader and poor research, never the less
were a faction favoured by skilled players for their rush tactics and supremely effective
probe teams.

Little has been altered, save to bring them a little more back into the public domain (free
morale and probe for fundamentalist), and to scale back slightly their ability to create huge
legions within the first 50 turns.

Changes:
* Added 'Impunity, Fundamentalist' (no research penalty from this government choice)
* Benefit from change of fundamentalist prereq to Social psych (alpha.txt change)
* Changed 'social, ++support 'social, +support'

Datalinks Info:
^+25% bonus when attacking, from strength of belief
^+1 PROBE: {Devout followers difficult to brainwash}
^+1 SUPPORT: {Citizens eager to defend faith}
^-2 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
^-1 PLANET: {Believe Planet is their promised land}
^Suffers no negative effects from Fundamentalist politics
^Accumulates NO research points until MY 2110
^{May not use Knowledge value in Social Engineering}

GAIANS.txt
* Added 'Unit, 7' (free alien artifact at beginning)
* Gaians now benefit from increased bonus to Psi-Combat

No datalinks changes

HIVE.txt

Vision:
The faction most in need of rebalancing, the Hive was easily the most powerful of the original
factions, especially after the first patch.

The Hive has been changed to favour a more population based approach to planet domination, with
the hugely advantagous +1 INDUSTRY removed entirely. The original 'Enhanced Communist China'
vision has been restored - a huge, hardworking, but somewhat unhappy population in a brutal
but philosophical ditatorship.

Changes:
* Added 'Drone, 4' (reflecting Yang's unwilling workforce) - taken from Uni
* Reduced 'Immunity, Effic', to 'Robust, Effic' (no free soc settings, more usable options)
* Removed +1 Industry (massively unbalancing factor)
* Increased Growth to +2 (allows population boom w. Planned and creche)
* Added 'Pop, -2' (hab restrictions lifted to 10 per base) - taken from Peace.

Datalinks info:
^+2 GROWTH: {Rapid population increase}
^-2 ECONOMY: {Little political freedom}
^Disciplined followers: {Efficiency penalties halved}
^Underground bunkers: {Free PERIMETER DEFENSE at each base}
^Close habitation: {may exceed hab restrictions by 2}
^Hardship: {Extra DRONE for every 4 citizens}
^{May not use Democratic politics.}

MORGAN.txt

Vision: Definitely the weakest of the original factions, morgan has been upgraded to a
more reasonable level of unbridled capitalist power. Now able to maintain a normal army,
and with no real dependance on outside trade for energy production, Morgan's only worry is
a crippling lack of growth.

* Changed starting tech to Industrial economics (allows Free market immediately)
* Added 'Facility, 7' (free energy bank at each base)
* Increased starting energy to 200 (balance against change in alpha.txt to initial energy)
* Changed 'Social, -Support' to 'Social, -Growth'

Datalinks info:
^TECH: {Industrial Economics}

^+1 ECONOMY: {Industrial conglomerate}
^-1 GROWTH: {Hedonistic lifestyle}
^+1 COMMERCE: {Increases value of treaties & pacts}
^Free ENERGY BANK at each base
^Begins with 200 extra energy credits.
^Lavish Housing: {Need HAB COMPLEX for bases to exceed size 5}
^{May not use Planned Economics.}

PEACE.txt

Vision: While not actually weak in the original, the PeaceKeepers weren't much more successful
than the present day U.N when it came to actual conflict. They gain 2 new abilities, a
sharetech upgrade (reflecting their global influence and the original vision for the 'Keepers
of Wisdom'), and an immunity to negative support, making democracy a painless option for its
guardians on planet.

* Added 'Sharetech, 3' (gains any tech owned by three other factions)
* Added 'Immunity, Support' (support penalties eliminated)
* Removed 'Pop, -2' (no extra population) - given to Hive
* Increased Effic penalty to -2 (balancing factor - paradigm economy difficult to achieve)

Datalinks info
^-2 EFFICIENCY: {U.N. style bureaucracy}
^Intellectual Elite: {Extra TALENT for every four citizens}
^Military readiness: {Support value never less than zero}
^Unity Archivists: {Gains any TECHNOLOGY known by three other factions}
^Receives DOUBLE votes in elections for Planetary Governor and Supreme Leader.
^{May not use Police State Politics.}

SPARTANS.txt

Vision: Somewhat altered, the spartans lose their crippling industry penalty in exchange
for slightly lowered morale and a new Psi combat penalty. A powerful military machine,
especially when faced with human rivals, but prone to panic when confronted with the
alien terrors of Planet.

* Changed 'Social, ++Morale', to 'Social, +Morale' (slightly weaker on defense)
* Added 'Psi, -25' (Psi combat penalty - equivilent to -2 Morale vs. aliens)
* Removed 'Social, -Industry' (no industry penalty)

Datalinks info:
^+1 MORALE: {Well-armed survivalist movement}
^+1 POLICE: {Highly disciplined followers}
^Prototype units do not cost extra minerals.
^Fear of Planet: {-25% penalty to Psi combat}
^{May not use Wealth value in Social Engineering.}

UNIV.txt

Vision: Not quite as dark and hostile as the original university, this version offers a
more academic vision of the UoP - good research, poor security, a reluctance to support
military endeavors, and a new resistance to psychic attack. This new benefit adds a
new dimension to the UoP, and allows a green university to better combat its religious
and military rivals.

Changes:
* Added 'Social, -Support' to list of abilities (disadvantage to having large army)
* Removed Drone, 4 (incompatible with new support penalty, bad anyway)
* Added 'Psi, 20' (+20 bonus to Psi combat - equivilent to +1 Planet)

Datalinks info:
^+20% bonus to Psi Combat, from intellectual discipline
^+2 RESEARCH: {Brilliant scientists}
^-1 SUPPORT: {Researchers skeptical of military worth}
^-2 PROBE: {Academic networks vulnerable to infiltration}
^Free NETWORK NODE at every base
^One BONUS TECH at beginning of game
^{May not use Fundamentalist Politics.}

posted 06-17-99 01:50 AM ET            

if ou email me your files i'll do some playtesting on it actually i wanna see how it plays

posted 06-17-99 10:29 PM ET            

Right now, I have a choice between Applied Systems, Doctrine: Intelligence, and Doctrine: Destruction. I think I like the two doctrines more than the systems.

Doctrine: Intelligence (C2) is the new prereq for probe teams and the heavily upgraded sensors (+50% defense). Doctrine: Destruction (C8) is a deadend tech for Planet Busters . It requires BOTH orbital spaceflight AND unified field theory, so you'll have to scout the tech tree pretty well to get those PBs now.

I will TRY to send everyone the 1.1 files tommorrow, if I can get the think stable again (I don't want to axe your terran files as well). Doctrine: Destruction was the one that messed things up, the third tech I did.

There should be around 8 files in all, with the new help.txt, Hive.txt, Peace.txt, alpha.txt, and the three or so tech files (no new icons as yet, and I can't record MP3 Files - Nell, how's your voice?)

posted 06-18-99 09:13 PM ET            

I'm also starting a new thread with the FULL version 1.1 changes file at the head. For now, I think feedback on the changes is the most important thing.