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Author Topic:   Peecekeeper blues

Panzar75 posted 05-20-99 10:28 PM ET
I�ve tried playing all factions but Miriam so far. I have version 3.0, usually play on thinker level and large map. I haven�t decided what faction I like best so far, but for a while I thought Pk�s. However there�s a problem with them; as Pk I always start next to Miriam or Santiago, I always meet them before turn 20 and they always declare war. So far I�ve completed one game with Pk�s. At least fifty times (I�m not kidding or exaggerating, 50+ times.) I�ve restarted realizing I have no chance.
I played Civ. 1 on my old amiga, civnet and civ. 2 on my old Pc, and now AC on my new Pc, so I have some experience. Yet with six +2 morale rovers before turn ten (yes, it has happned several times) I come up short. I thought starting places was somewhat random, but with Pk�s (and only Pk�s) Miriam or Santiago will be within 15 squares virtually 100% of the times.
I started a game last night on a 256x256 map expecting some privacy early on. I started on a crummy little island covered in fungus and hardly any space for a second city. I thought "at least I can play for a while before encountering Miriam or Santiago." Guess who came around turn five landing a scout next to my capital stating something like "I don�t like you so now I will kill you."? You should have a chance in two. (It was Santiago.) I don�t neccesarely mind early competition, but as Pk�s you�d rather not have Miriam or Santiago before you at least get laser or that nifty grey armour that I forgot the name of (could be because I for some reason always seems to find that tech rather than invent it). I would at least once like to have 50 turns before encountering them. I�ll take Morgan, Deirdre, Zakharov or even Yang on turn one if I could play just 50 turns before fighting Miriam or Santiago, just once! Hasn�t happened yet though�
I guess I wonder if this is a built in feature or if I�ve been terribly unlucky. Has anyone started more than 20 squares from eather Miriam or Santiago as Pk�s? I�d like to know. I�ll try a few more times before I go back to playing as Sparta, at least with them you have a fighting chance in the beginning.
On another topic� I wonder if it is possible to start on (in) one of the landmarks i.e. the jungle, sunny mesa, mount planet etc. I�ve seen the computer do so, but I have never had the pleasure myself. (Unless it was in the dunes in which case it wouldn�t be much of a pleasure.)
Panzar75 posted 05-20-99 10:33 PM ET
I apologize for the misspelling of "Peacekeeper" in the title, very sloppy. My only defence is that English isn't my native language.
OldWarrior_42 posted 05-20-99 10:58 PM ET
Panzer... no need to apoligize for spelling.. eveyone has their moments and english is my native language. Whats my sorry excuse. ... I usually play Gaians on huge and I always get slammed right in between Bible Bitch, Prozac, and Col. Klink er Santiago. You would think on huge you might get some breathing room,but it hasnt happened yet(but if you read other threads you would know I kind of like it because I am a warmonger at heart. Also I have a better chance to win in that scenario when I play my wimpy schmuck level 1. I cant handle them in anything from talent or higher. (maybe I am just a lousy general I guess) Hopefully next game will give me some space to give me time to discover the super duper blammo weapon to kick all everloving psycho faction ass.
Goobmeister posted 05-21-99 11:06 AM ET
As the PK's I've started near most of the factions, in fact all except Miriam and Santiago... Go figure. The one time that I ran into a Hive colony pod on turn 7 or 8 I had to choose right then and there whether I was going to coexist near the HIve or attack them in a win or die fight. I attacked, killed the pod of course and then sent my scout looking for The Hive. We found it pretty quickly right on the edge of the Uranium Flats. The Hive of course had their perimeter defenses, and had dixcovered synthmetal. My scout was bummed...
I moved the scout to the most fertile square the hive had and moved up more scouts to join him in starving out the Hive. Eventually a 2-2-1 infantry came out and took out one of my scouts, but it weakened him enough that another scout was able to kill him. This pattern continued for fifty years until I had two impact infantry roll up on the hive and take out the defenders. For fifty years I had been producing nothing but infantry and 1 colony pod, and now all I had to show for it was 3 cities, 2 of which were ridiculously small, and a small high experience army. I also no longer had a neighbor, and since my troops let Yang escape I also had an enemy for the rest of the game.
(when the game redeposited Yang, it dropped him on the Borehole... I then kicked his but a second time with Shard and Tachyon troops.)
Goob
Goobmeister posted 05-21-99 11:08 AM ET
To answer your question I think you have been horribly unlucky. The only really harsh start I have ever had was when my Spartans were dropped on a small island all by themselves with no butts to kick.
Goob
walruskkkch posted 05-21-99 02:11 PM ET
Want some privacy? Try a huge map with the
highest ocean setting. You have to go after
the right tech for naval warfare but most
factions start on small islands also so their
growth is slower.
Darkstar posted 05-21-99 02:36 PM ET
My experience with initial placement has me believing that the SMAC engine is coded to set at least one opponent, if not more, near to the human. I have seen it drop multiple factions within 5 squares of me on Huge maps set at maximum land. Just another of its many ways to teach you War and Conquest is the answer to everything...
-Darkstar
JAMstillAM posted 05-21-99 02:52 PM ET
Darkstar,
Try the settings that walruskkkch suggests, or even medium water, and that should make it easier for you to get a good seeding. Or, for 500 energy credits per game, I'll create some games for you and email you the files. Just tell me who you want to play and what difficulty level you want.
JAMiAM
Purple posted 05-21-99 03:07 PM ET
Panzar, I just started a PK Thinker game this afternoon, and so far I've met everyone EXCEPT Spartans, Believers, and Hive, and everyone has been relatively cordial, offering tech trades.
I'm on a modest-sized island, but found a Unity foil in my first pod, so I've been exploring since the beginning.
Sounds like you are having a horrible streak of bad luck. You'll just have to keep trying, I suppose.
Panzar75 posted 05-21-99 05:13 PM ET
Thanks for answering.
I have also used the "starve out" technique against the Hive, preventing him from spreading. But against Sparta it�s much harder, especially since they have rovers at once.
Most factions have something speaking for them early on, Believers have +25% on attack, Sparta +2 morale, Hive per. defences, Gaia a worm or two, Zakharov an extra tech or two and Morgan some money to hurry production. Peacekeepers? I guess they can have one pop. extra, but that doesn�t help against a couple of hardend rovers on turn fifteen. IF you can hold out long enough to get the command centre you do have a chance. As Pk�s I usually never get that far. My very green scouts just dies, on offence as well as on defence. I guess I�m not good enough early on. Special resources at the capital such as food or minerals help tremendously, but often I�m stuck with rolling and moist as the best square which means 20 turns before a colony pod.
Still, it�s a good game and I�ll try again tonight. This time I intend to win - regardless of opposition.
Submachinegun posted 05-21-99 11:32 PM ET
That's the spirit! Give'm hell!
HolyWarrior posted 05-22-99 11:37 PM ET
Panzar75--why haven't you played the Believers yet?
I can't stand the Hive, but at least I tried them.
I'm playing a game on Librarian as the PKs. I've got Miriam on my west AND Santiago on the east. Actually, Santiago has been nice to me so far.
The Gaians started near Monsoon Jungle and are twice as powerful as any other faction, so I'm keeping them friendly. They started fighting the Believers, so I joined in.
In short, the best defence for the PK is ATTACK!
Gondor posted 05-23-99 04:40 PM ET
I like to start next to all the factions I can, because I play on transcend and the best strategy is to go full fledged war from the get go and make as many slaves as possible IMHO..ie conquer and make submissive pact bro's with as many factions so you can get free tech and eliminate them as comp before they get too strong. Trust me , the advantages they get on transcend will kill you if you are stuck on an island and all by yourself and not bothered. That just means they well get to grow and get tech at an astounding rate and be next to unbeatable or (it will be a b*tch beating them and no fun). If you get them early then you both are on a more even playing field. rush rush rush rush is what I say you need to do. Get speeder, then laser, then impact cannon (whatever 4 attack is right after laser) as quick as possible and rush and pray you have some factions close by, you need puppets at transcend. Then after you conquer 2 or 3 factions you can start to build a bit and get infrastructure. Also, with those alien artifacts, you can use them to build early wonders that are crucial like the command nexus..which helps you conquer. Unless I play as Yang, who is easiest to win with especially on transcend because he is great at suppressing unhappiness with police state w/o loss of effeciency. And his production makes him get secret projects fast, you wont need to use alien artifacts to rush the projects with him. I need to use them with morgan though because of the support hit i take with him (-1) support is a killer early playing transcend. Although morgan is fun because you can use wealth and get +1 energy each square without using free market..I use green with him and can even use police state without to much of a hit.
Urban Ranger posted 05-24-99 02:46 AM ET
Panzar 75:
There are a number of things you can try. First, start a game on a huge map. This reduces your chance of running into an enemy early. You can tell whether somebody else is close to you by noting how many colony pods you start with. One, you are safe, at least for the time being. Two, expect a visitor soon. Do not start your map with the least amount of water. This further increases the chance of separation. If you play the Gaians, go with the abundant life forms option.
When you start around, do the maximum amount of exploration you can. Within about 10 turns or so, you should be able to tell whether the game is worth continuing. Some others may consider this cheating, but if you are going to quit in another 40 turns, why bother?
Carry out an aggresive expansion plan. Build your bases in a regular pattern with some overlapping. If a base site is currently unusable (rocky/sea/fungus), move up to the next base site. Do not break the pattern unless the site is permanently unusable due to the presence of a monolith -- you could try to "use up" the monolith, but I feel that's just silly.
Roll out a former from each city. Plant forests early so they can expand. Construct roads to connect your bases: a regular pattern of bases let you minimize the number of roads needed. Construct sensors to protect you from mind worms and enemy units.
Once you have at least 4 or 5 bases, you can start creating them into zones. The core zone consists of bases near the "center" that are ususally built earlier. Have them build infrastructures and SP. The expansion zone consisted of bases near the "rim": You can generally tell where the rim -- areas closer to potential enemies -- by examining the map.
Bases in the expansion zone are responsible for building more bases. Once you push your rim further out, more bases can be moved into the core zone.
The general idea is you can't be too small and wimpy or the computer players would think you are a pushover.
If you start close to the Hive, the Spartans, or the Believers, expect an early conflict. Plan accordingly.
Some generic defensive suggestions:
1. Build a mobile reserve force consisted of rovers. Having interconnecting bases allow them to defend each other mutually.
2. Forests slow everything down. You can create artificial choke points with forests.
3. You don't need more than 1-x-1 for your defensive garrisons. Add Hypnotic Trance once you get that.
4. You don't need armor for your attack rovers.
5. Use probe teams! They move fast, require no support, and can steal money, tech or wreck havoc. If you don't use them, expect the computer players to use them against you.
6. Grab enemy bases when doing so doesn't endanger your overall defense scheme.
7. Build relevant SPs. Early in the game, that would be the Command Nexus, the Citizens' Defense Force, and the Weather Paradigm. The last one allows you to raise or lower terrain to your advantage.
Igor posted 05-24-99 11:42 AM ET
Yeah, I also always start near Santiago when playing PK. But if I have 2-3 defenders and 1 offensive unit in each base, there is no problem with neighbours.
But why, when I play Miriam, both, Yang and Santiago, are on my borders? ALWAYS at least one of them, and no one near peaceful faction. But if you have a luck, you're near PK :-) So, press on them and get pact (all tech, all money)
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Author	Topic: Peecekeeper blues
Panzar75	posted 05-20-99 10:28 PM ET I�ve tried playing all factions but Miriam so far. I have version 3.0, usually play on thinker level and large map. I haven�t decided what faction I like best so far, but for a while I thought Pk�s. However there�s a problem with them; as Pk I always start next to Miriam or Santiago, I always meet them before turn 20 and they always declare war. So far I�ve completed one game with Pk�s. At least fifty times (I�m not kidding or exaggerating, 50+ times.) I�ve restarted realizing I have no chance. I played Civ. 1 on my old amiga, civnet and civ. 2 on my old Pc, and now AC on my new Pc, so I have some experience. Yet with six +2 morale rovers before turn ten (yes, it has happned several times) I come up short. I thought starting places was somewhat random, but with Pk�s (and only Pk�s) Miriam or Santiago will be within 15 squares virtually 100% of the times. I started a game last night on a 256x256 map expecting some privacy early on. I started on a crummy little island covered in fungus and hardly any space for a second city. I thought "at least I can play for a while before encountering Miriam or Santiago." Guess who came around turn five landing a scout next to my capital stating something like "I don�t like you so now I will kill you."? You should have a chance in two. (It was Santiago.) I don�t neccesarely mind early competition, but as Pk�s you�d rather not have Miriam or Santiago before you at least get laser or that nifty grey armour that I forgot the name of (could be because I for some reason always seems to find that tech rather than invent it). I would at least once like to have 50 turns before encountering them. I�ll take Morgan, Deirdre, Zakharov or even Yang on turn one if I could play just 50 turns before fighting Miriam or Santiago, just once! Hasn�t happened yet though� I guess I wonder if this is a built in feature or if I�ve been terribly unlucky. Has anyone started more than 20 squares from eather Miriam or Santiago as Pk�s? I�d like to know. I�ll try a few more times before I go back to playing as Sparta, at least with them you have a fighting chance in the beginning. On another topic� I wonder if it is possible to start on (in) one of the landmarks i.e. the jungle, sunny mesa, mount planet etc. I�ve seen the computer do so, but I have never had the pleasure myself. (Unless it was in the dunes in which case it wouldn�t be much of a pleasure.)
Panzar75	posted 05-20-99 10:33 PM ET I apologize for the misspelling of "Peacekeeper" in the title, very sloppy. My only defence is that English isn't my native language.
OldWarrior_42	posted 05-20-99 10:58 PM ET Panzer... no need to apoligize for spelling.. eveyone has their moments and english is my native language. Whats my sorry excuse. ... I usually play Gaians on huge and I always get slammed right in between Bible Bitch, Prozac, and Col. Klink er Santiago. You would think on huge you might get some breathing room,but it hasnt happened yet(but if you read other threads you would know I kind of like it because I am a warmonger at heart. Also I have a better chance to win in that scenario when I play my wimpy schmuck level 1. I cant handle them in anything from talent or higher. (maybe I am just a lousy general I guess) Hopefully next game will give me some space to give me time to discover the super duper blammo weapon to kick all everloving psycho faction ass.
Goobmeister	posted 05-21-99 11:06 AM ET As the PK's I've started near most of the factions, in fact all except Miriam and Santiago... Go figure. The one time that I ran into a Hive colony pod on turn 7 or 8 I had to choose right then and there whether I was going to coexist near the HIve or attack them in a win or die fight. I attacked, killed the pod of course and then sent my scout looking for The Hive. We found it pretty quickly right on the edge of the Uranium Flats. The Hive of course had their perimeter defenses, and had dixcovered synthmetal. My scout was bummed... I moved the scout to the most fertile square the hive had and moved up more scouts to join him in starving out the Hive. Eventually a 2-2-1 infantry came out and took out one of my scouts, but it weakened him enough that another scout was able to kill him. This pattern continued for fifty years until I had two impact infantry roll up on the hive and take out the defenders. For fifty years I had been producing nothing but infantry and 1 colony pod, and now all I had to show for it was 3 cities, 2 of which were ridiculously small, and a small high experience army. I also no longer had a neighbor, and since my troops let Yang escape I also had an enemy for the rest of the game. (when the game redeposited Yang, it dropped him on the Borehole... I then kicked his but a second time with Shard and Tachyon troops.) Goob
Goobmeister	posted 05-21-99 11:08 AM ET To answer your question I think you have been horribly unlucky. The only really harsh start I have ever had was when my Spartans were dropped on a small island all by themselves with no butts to kick. Goob
walruskkkch	posted 05-21-99 02:11 PM ET Want some privacy? Try a huge map with the highest ocean setting. You have to go after the right tech for naval warfare but most factions start on small islands also so their growth is slower.
Darkstar	posted 05-21-99 02:36 PM ET My experience with initial placement has me believing that the SMAC engine is coded to set at least one opponent, if not more, near to the human. I have seen it drop multiple factions within 5 squares of me on Huge maps set at maximum land. Just another of its many ways to teach you War and Conquest is the answer to everything... -Darkstar
JAMstillAM	posted 05-21-99 02:52 PM ET Darkstar, Try the settings that walruskkkch suggests, or even medium water, and that should make it easier for you to get a good seeding. Or, for 500 energy credits per game, I'll create some games for you and email you the files. Just tell me who you want to play and what difficulty level you want. JAMiAM
Purple	posted 05-21-99 03:07 PM ET Panzar, I just started a PK Thinker game this afternoon, and so far I've met everyone EXCEPT Spartans, Believers, and Hive, and everyone has been relatively cordial, offering tech trades. I'm on a modest-sized island, but found a Unity foil in my first pod, so I've been exploring since the beginning. Sounds like you are having a horrible streak of bad luck. You'll just have to keep trying, I suppose.
Panzar75	posted 05-21-99 05:13 PM ET Thanks for answering. I have also used the "starve out" technique against the Hive, preventing him from spreading. But against Sparta it�s much harder, especially since they have rovers at once. Most factions have something speaking for them early on, Believers have +25% on attack, Sparta +2 morale, Hive per. defences, Gaia a worm or two, Zakharov an extra tech or two and Morgan some money to hurry production. Peacekeepers? I guess they can have one pop. extra, but that doesn�t help against a couple of hardend rovers on turn fifteen. IF you can hold out long enough to get the command centre you do have a chance. As Pk�s I usually never get that far. My very green scouts just dies, on offence as well as on defence. I guess I�m not good enough early on. Special resources at the capital such as food or minerals help tremendously, but often I�m stuck with rolling and moist as the best square which means 20 turns before a colony pod. Still, it�s a good game and I�ll try again tonight. This time I intend to win - regardless of opposition.
Submachinegun	posted 05-21-99 11:32 PM ET That's the spirit! Give'm hell!
HolyWarrior	posted 05-22-99 11:37 PM ET Panzar75--why haven't you played the Believers yet? I can't stand the Hive, but at least I tried them. I'm playing a game on Librarian as the PKs. I've got Miriam on my west AND Santiago on the east. Actually, Santiago has been nice to me so far. The Gaians started near Monsoon Jungle and are twice as powerful as any other faction, so I'm keeping them friendly. They started fighting the Believers, so I joined in. In short, the best defence for the PK is ATTACK!
Gondor	posted 05-23-99 04:40 PM ET I like to start next to all the factions I can, because I play on transcend and the best strategy is to go full fledged war from the get go and make as many slaves as possible IMHO..ie conquer and make submissive pact bro's with as many factions so you can get free tech and eliminate them as comp before they get too strong. Trust me , the advantages they get on transcend will kill you if you are stuck on an island and all by yourself and not bothered. That just means they well get to grow and get tech at an astounding rate and be next to unbeatable or (it will be a b*tch beating them and no fun). If you get them early then you both are on a more even playing field. rush rush rush rush is what I say you need to do. Get speeder, then laser, then impact cannon (whatever 4 attack is right after laser) as quick as possible and rush and pray you have some factions close by, you need puppets at transcend. Then after you conquer 2 or 3 factions you can start to build a bit and get infrastructure. Also, with those alien artifacts, you can use them to build early wonders that are crucial like the command nexus..which helps you conquer. Unless I play as Yang, who is easiest to win with especially on transcend because he is great at suppressing unhappiness with police state w/o loss of effeciency. And his production makes him get secret projects fast, you wont need to use alien artifacts to rush the projects with him. I need to use them with morgan though because of the support hit i take with him (-1) support is a killer early playing transcend. Although morgan is fun because you can use wealth and get +1 energy each square without using free market..I use green with him and can even use police state without to much of a hit.
Urban Ranger	posted 05-24-99 02:46 AM ET Panzar 75: There are a number of things you can try. First, start a game on a huge map. This reduces your chance of running into an enemy early. You can tell whether somebody else is close to you by noting how many colony pods you start with. One, you are safe, at least for the time being. Two, expect a visitor soon. Do not start your map with the least amount of water. This further increases the chance of separation. If you play the Gaians, go with the abundant life forms option. When you start around, do the maximum amount of exploration you can. Within about 10 turns or so, you should be able to tell whether the game is worth continuing. Some others may consider this cheating, but if you are going to quit in another 40 turns, why bother? Carry out an aggresive expansion plan. Build your bases in a regular pattern with some overlapping. If a base site is currently unusable (rocky/sea/fungus), move up to the next base site. Do not break the pattern unless the site is permanently unusable due to the presence of a monolith -- you could try to "use up" the monolith, but I feel that's just silly. Roll out a former from each city. Plant forests early so they can expand. Construct roads to connect your bases: a regular pattern of bases let you minimize the number of roads needed. Construct sensors to protect you from mind worms and enemy units. Once you have at least 4 or 5 bases, you can start creating them into zones. The core zone consists of bases near the "center" that are ususally built earlier. Have them build infrastructures and SP. The expansion zone consisted of bases near the "rim": You can generally tell where the rim -- areas closer to potential enemies -- by examining the map. Bases in the expansion zone are responsible for building more bases. Once you push your rim further out, more bases can be moved into the core zone. The general idea is you can't be too small and wimpy or the computer players would think you are a pushover. If you start close to the Hive, the Spartans, or the Believers, expect an early conflict. Plan accordingly. Some generic defensive suggestions: 1. Build a mobile reserve force consisted of rovers. Having interconnecting bases allow them to defend each other mutually. 2. Forests slow everything down. You can create artificial choke points with forests. 3. You don't need more than 1-x-1 for your defensive garrisons. Add Hypnotic Trance once you get that. 4. You don't need armor for your attack rovers. 5. Use probe teams! They move fast, require no support, and can steal money, tech or wreck havoc. If you don't use them, expect the computer players to use them against you. 6. Grab enemy bases when doing so doesn't endanger your overall defense scheme. 7. Build relevant SPs. Early in the game, that would be the Command Nexus, the Citizens' Defense Force, and the Weather Paradigm. The last one allows you to raise or lower terrain to your advantage.
Igor	posted 05-24-99 11:42 AM ET Yeah, I also always start near Santiago when playing PK. But if I have 2-3 defenders and 1 offensive unit in each base, there is no problem with neighbours. But why, when I play Miriam, both, Yang and Santiago, are on my borders? ALWAYS at least one of them, and no one near peaceful faction. But if you have a luck, you're near PK :-) So, press on them and get pact (all tech, all money)