Newest Batch of Bugs Found in US 3 SMAC - To Probe, Or Not To Probe

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Author Topic:   Newest Batch of Bugs Found in US 3 SMAC - To Probe, Or Not To Probe

Darkstar posted 05-10-99 05:44 PM ET
Greetings.
These may have already been reported, but as I have yet to find a public list of bugs other than this forum, I will post them ANYWAYS. Most of these bugs are Probe related...
Bug 1- If Sky-Hydroponic Satellite is currently being built, cannot QUEUE any more. Note: Can Queue Sky-Hydroponic Satellites as long as the city HAS an Aerospace Complex, and is NOT already building a Sky-Hydro.
Bug 2- When a Probe Team with Armor is the only defender in a base under attack, it defends like any combat unit. When another non-probe team is the defender in a base and loses, all "armored" probe teams are lost as if non-combat units.
Bug 3- When designing a Rover Probe team, if the team is given Armor, the correct Armored Probe Team Rover graphic is displayed. If left unarmored, graphic is that of infantry probe team.
Bug 4- When updating Infantry Probe Unit Design to Rover Probe Unit Design, they REPLACE the base Infantry Probe team slot rather than take a new one. This is inconsistant behavior, for when you upgrade Infantry Formers, they take a NEW slot, not the base slot for that design.
Bug 5- AI does not use Naval Probe Teams. While it was a great boost to myself to think and use these, the AI should know this basic probe tactic.
Bug 6- AI wastes Probe Teams against Faction with Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
Bug 7- Can't place probe equipment on Aircraft chassis. If a plane stays in the air for 2 years, then that is more than long enough to subvert it. Air Probe teams not being able to subvert Non-Air units would be acceptable. Otherwise, "Guardian Angel" tactics are just too effective.
Bug 8- Wrong User Interface Behavior - When warned that the AI city has new security interlocks, if you hit the ESCAPE key, SMAC acts as if the user had clicked OK. This is incorrect behaviour for Windows. ESCAPE = Cancel (When cancel is an option). This problem also occurs on the "Warning! Odds to Greatly Against Us" Screen.
Bug 9- Have to use Control+Shift+S or Control+Shift+M to place farms and mines and solar-collectors on Volcanic tiles.
Bug 10- Computer AI Formers are still building Bunkers before they have the technology to do so.
Bug 11- Can place Bore Holes on [Garland] Crater Rim, which is definately SLOPED.
Bug 12- Aquafier Rivers running up hill. River drilled in 1100m square and runs UP to 1313m tile neighbor before running down. Looks odd.
Bug 13- Aquafier River running up and over [Garland] crater rim (from inner rim outward).
Bug 14- Council voting to raise and lower sea levels when my FACTION is the only faction with SPACE FARING capability! As I was at war with the world, my people certainly aren't going to allow them to use OUR launch capabilities to put up solar shades. If all space-faring factions vote no/use someone-else's pads, then Solar Shade (and other launch required options) should be cancelled DISPITE votes.
Bug 15- All Factions with Orbital Defences Pods should be able to destroy Council voted option to place Solar Shades/Salvage Unity Core/Melt Polar Ice, unless opposed by factions with OTHER Orbital Defence Pods.
-Darkstar
Urban Ranger posted 05-10-99 11:06 PM ET
Several Observations:
1. The basic probe team is already built on a rover chasis. That's why they can move 2 squares.
2. Non-combat units can defend, but if there is any combat units around, those take precedence. If the last combat unit is destroyed, all non-combat units are also destroyed as per existing rules. But non-combat units should not be destroyed that way in a base or bunker. Just MHO.
3. Can't put "air superiority" SA in probe team slots either.
4. I also noticed computer formers going around building bunkers when they don't have the tech to do so.
Darkstar posted 05-11-99 01:43 AM ET
Urban...
When I first gain Probe Teams, my probe team says 0-1-1. What does yours say? A one movement means its Infantry, not Rover.
If a unit has ARMOR, it is no longer a non-combat unit. That was what I was complaining about. The Defender Probe Team (0-2-1), being a COMBAT unit, should not have been destroyed when the SynthMetal Garrison was defeated...
I just think that you should be able to probe air units since the bloody things are hanging there for over a year. If a probe team can seize control of a tank or a battleship, why not an air unit? And then you could seize control of Cruise Missiles and Planet Busters... They should be SIMPLIER than hacking and bribing Capital Ships and Missile Toting Infantry Platoons... It would also help the AI deal with Air Warfare and Air Defence better... Make you have to stack your air units for protection at a minimum.
-Darkstar
cousLee posted 05-11-99 06:00 AM ET
Darkstar, mine show up 1-1-2. in order to get the infantry probe, you have to design it.
Urban Ranger posted 05-11-99 07:04 AM ET
Darkstar, my probe teams show up as 0-1-2. I wondered about it, but since they can definitely move 2 spaces, they have to be based on the speeder chasis.
As for combat/non-combat units, it seems that putting armor on a non-combat unit, i.e., any units that does not have a big gun, doesn't make it into a combat unit. The only advantage I can think of for putting armor on your non-combat units (probe teams, formers, etc.), is for them to have a chance to disengage.
Darkstar posted 05-11-99 02:17 PM ET
Are you using Auto-Design units? I have noticed that the AI's Probe teams are moving 6 road tiles (=2 movement). I don't use Auto-Design as I rarely use about half of what the Auto Designers want to use. For that matter, I also don't use Auto-Prune as it throws out (obsoletes) too many of my units without asking me, and has a bad habit of obsoleting my choppers whenever the bombers are updated otherwise.
Since I often get Probe Teams before Rovers, I think this is the ACTUAL culprit. I get Probes, which as an auto basic unit, shows up in my lists, using Infantry as chassis. Once I get Rovers, and update the Probe team Design, I expect it to take a new slot, just as Rover Formers do. But it doesn't. Go figure...
As far as combat versus non-combat goes... a Transport Foil without Armor is Non-Combat. A Transport Foil With Armor *IS* Combat. It defends water bases like a combat ship, and it does not recieve the -50% modifier of the non-combat. My ARMORED PROBE TEAM acted the same way. When an opponent unit attacked a city with an Armored Probe in it, the probe defended as a infantry, and did not have the "Non-Combat" unit penalty. However, when the synthmetal garrison unit DIED in my base, it wiped out the Armored Probe Team as if it was a non-armored one. Bug. It can't be both a combat and non-combat unit... The difference is obviously that they hard coded the destruction of probe teams in the same tile as the last defending unit. They did not do that with "Transports". Bad coding habits on their part strike again. Good thing they don't work for a living...
-Darkstar
cousLee posted 05-11-99 08:00 PM ET
No, I don't use auto design either, although I do have auto-prune on. I have a game right now, that i got probe teams before rovers. it shows up as 1-1-2. I had to manually create intantry probe teams. I was also able to use the early rover cheat (even though I don't use it, i was ABLE to if so inclined).
I have not had the instance of a non probe garrison being destroyed when another probe garrison is present. I personally don't use probes as garrisons, I armor them to help protect them on their journey to enemy bases. I do know this much, armor on a probe has no effect when battling another probe team.
I would agree that they (armored probe) should not be destroyed when a non-probe unit is defeated.
Mergle posted 05-12-99 03:08 AM ET
I concur with Darkstar's non-combat comments. Further, although *my* non-combat units all die (even with perim def) when my last combat unit is killed in a city, this doesn't seem to happen to the AI - I have to kill his non-coms separately. Has anyone else noticed this?
Urban Ranger posted 05-12-99 03:50 AM ET
Darkstar - no, I don't use auto design. The probe team shows up as soon as I get Planetary Networks as a basic design with 2 movement points. I also have a problem with auto purge, though it's the other way around: it leaves many empty, obsolete designs sitting around so I have to deal with that awful scroll bar. Ugh.
Mergle - no, I don't stick my non-combat units, other than probe teams, inside bases. But you are right, even after I trounced the last combat unit in an enemy base I still have to plow through all those formers and transport foils.
StarChaser Tyger posted 05-12-99 06:27 PM ET
My probe teams also start as 0-1-1, before I get rovers. Once I get rovers, I can redesign them and the 'rover probes' replace the originals, with 0-1-2.
Has anyone else run across the instant Demon Boil? I was trying to get a couple of small mindworm units (Playing the Gaians) to patrol a wad of fungus to scare out more mindworms...when I tried to use the waypoints for the patrol, I got a green line that shot off the screen toward a city, and the pre-boil unit suddenly turned into a Demon boil. It exhibits all the properties of a 'real' demon boil, ie it's not just a graphics glitch. (It can thump units much larger than the pre-boils could, and all the information on it says 'demon'...)
Urban Ranger posted 05-13-99 12:01 PM ET
Looks like another glitch alright. Have you been able to duplicate it?
marc420w posted 05-13-99 05:56 PM ET
Just another note on the aerial subversion discussion......
There are times where the probe teams are described as super-hacker type units. In that case, the notion of hackers getting into the software of an air-unit and forcing it into your control seems extremely possible, the notion of probe teams specially designed to go after enemy air units seems plausible.
In terms of game balance, I may argue though that these units should be denied the ability to attack ground or naval units OR enemy cities. Having a probe team with a range of 12 squares would be lethal. A huge amount of enemy cities would be instantly vulnerable.
Following the logic out to absurdity, how about ground probe units with AA ability to fight off the enemy aerial probe teams.
Has anyone tried Probe 'copters?
LocustOfChiron posted 05-13-99 08:49 PM ET
Here's a scary and vicious thought: stasis gravship probe team.
Warp Warrior posted 05-15-99 10:44 AM ET
Playing PK, Have HSA, my city has a probe team in it. Yang drops two probe teams off next to city, one trys to infiltrate the city and starts attacking my probe unit, ends up dieing because mine is elite. Are probe teams not protected by the HSA (normal)or is this a glitch? Every other time I have seen another faction try to infiltrate a city (has no probe team in it) before, the attacking probe team dies trying because of HSA. Does the fact that there is a probe team in the city override the computer checking for HSA? I thought having the HSA made all things immune from other factions probe teams, am I mistaken?.
Urban Ranger posted 05-15-99 12:22 PM ET
Speaking of probe teams, I want to know why I couldn't put cloaking on probe teams.
On the same topic, somebody mentioned you can put probe on a military unit to make it free from support. But that seems impossible. Probe replaces any weapon that unit might have.
Warp Warrior posted 05-15-99 09:31 PM ET
Yea I read that too, they in theory should be just as good a defender as anybody else, but don't put a "real" military unit in the same city or it will suddenly be the one taking all the damage and if destroyed will also kill the probe teams. The computer seems to forget that the armored probe team is a military unit since it does have armor, but probe teams get grouped in with non combatants when the last military unit in the city gets killed.
Urban Ranger posted 05-16-99 07:07 AM ET
Funny you mentioned that. I always thought that military units are those with guns in their weapon slots. I can't remember whether my probe team got the -50% non-combat penalty last time it was attacked by a hostile military unit, but I distinctly remembered that it has a 0.01 strength. Totally worthless as a defender.
icosahedron posted 05-21-99 04:39 PM ET
The correct way to deal with this is to disallow armor for probe teams. They are spies, right? Not conventional military units. And the lack of need for support of an armored probe unit is evidence that such was not properly anticipated and is a bug. Look, if probes have armor, they are acting as infantry in a defensive sense, so they should at least lose their ZOC and movement advantages, and they should require support, just like armored formers and colony pods.
But even more to the point, they are spies, dang it! They should not be able to act in a military capacity at all, and should simply die when attacked by a military unit. Strength of 0.1? Ha! They are going to die anyway, so why not just make it automatic? Of course, if spies are cornered by armed soldiers they are just dead. If you want it to be interesting (and perhaps to help balance the power of probes), make them less visible (give them some natural cloaking or something to represent their stealth), and give military units who do find them a chance to capture and interrogate them, perhaps leading to gain of tech or some such.
Another reason probes should just disappear when attacked by military units is that they cannot offer any real resistance, so they should not be able to delay the taking of a square for even one turn. On the other hand, colony pods and formers should be able to offer some resistance, and should have to be taken out one by one just as military units are.
Maybe a probe stacked with a military unit will have a positive effect on the morale of the unit? Maybe the unit could fight at the higher of its morale and the probe's morale, to reflect the higher level of intelligence and planning presumably represented by an elite probe team?
Just some thoughts.
- icosahedron

Darkstar posted 05-24-99 01:43 PM ET
Probe teams can be spies. They can also be those elite SEAL commandos. Are you trying to tell me that a Seal team can't decimate a normal military unit?
The problem seems to be a lack of consistancy about military units having Weapons or Armor, and that SMAC units are not on the same SCALE as each other. I see Scouts as being a single man to small recon team (depending on the technology) and most other land units as being between platoon and brigade sized...
Consistancy is not one of SMAC's strong points (IMHO).
-Darkstar
Khizr posted 05-24-99 04:37 PM ET
Regarding Bug 8, this behavior also occurs when you click on "hurry" in the production queue - if you hit "ESC," SMAC acts like you clicked on OK.
---
"Bug 8- Wrong User Interface Behavior - When warned that the AI city has new security interlocks, if you hit the ESCAPE key, SMAC acts as if the user had clicked OK. This is incorrect behaviour for Windows. ESCAPE = Cancel (When cancel is an option). This problem also occurs on the "Warning! Odds to Greatly Against Us" Screen."
Urban Ranger posted 05-25-99 01:02 AM ET
Darkstar,
Probe teams can't be special forces units. If they are, they should require support like regular military units and can sure fight a lot better. Also, probe teams aren't allowed to sabotage an enemy unit a la spies in Civ 2, who are closer to commandoes. Lastly, they don't have a "formal existence" according to the manual, and special forces units certainly have a formal existence.
K posted 05-25-99 07:03 PM ET
Am I the only one whose played with the "aplha.txt"?
I'm not sure if this will work, but if you want these badass probes then try this: Go to the alpha.txt, then find the special abilities section, read the documentaion, and change the required "1" to a "0" where is acts as a "May not be put on this and this kind of unit." There are sections for everything, so I assume you can make flying probe teams and AAA teams. But why Cloaked? Probe teams already ignore ZOC's.
Personally, I'd take Amphibious Teams. Much cheaper than those damned Foil teams.
Darkstar posted 05-25-99 11:33 PM ET
K, I haven't played with the Alpha.txt up to now. After patch to version 4.0, I probably will experiment.
Urban Ranger, what? Are you kidding me? Most of the special forces aren't recognized as official existing units. I got relatives and friends that spent a large part of the 50's and 60's doing lots of naughty things in places other than Vietnam. I have no reason to DOUBT them, nor their surviving team-mates, and yet, they never existed. Nor most of their peers and peer-teams. They were stationed in Fort Briggs (I think it's Brigg's that had the paperwork) officially "mowing grass". Most of the Elite Special Force Teams in the world aren't "real" or official. Makes plausible deniability easier. Also, people can't leak what they don't know, yadda yadda yadda...
I don't know why probe teams can't sabotage other units. Probably a design decision to make them seem less like Civ spys and diplomats. I'd PREFER if probe equipment was simply a special ability. Then you could out and out make SEALS and other special forces teams. And then they would require upkeep (Hey, they have lots of special eq, and you should have to pay SOMETHING to maintain those things).
-Darkstar
K posted 05-26-99 03:12 AM ET
Don't be afiad to play with the alpha.txt, because it was put into text format so that players COULD change rules they didn't like.
Oh, and I think the point is that Probe Teams are such badasses that they can find thier own resources. How often did you ever see James Bond pick up his paycheck. Almost every movie he'd make a bundle of cash at the casino, and he always had the best stuff. with Q for a couple of gismos now and then, and he was set.
I think a probe team does no officially exist because by being independantly financially and materially, they can't be linked to thier bosses.
And Navy SEALs always seemed more like cloaked infantry to me.
VictorK posted 05-27-99 07:56 AM ET
I agree that armored probe teams should be banned. Not only that they require no support, they fight with a higher morale bonus than other units. They receive the same morale bonus as other land units from Command Centers and Bioenhancement Centers, and also from certain technologies that improve probe team morale.
Plato90s posted 05-28-99 10:15 AM ET
Just to clear up some rules....
Probes are always killed when the last unit in a city is killed. Formers are not, so you have to kill them individually. The same thing happens to the AI, so it's not a bug, just a strange rule.
Since a rover probe team costs exactly the same as infantry probe team, who would bother even making an infantry probe team?
Yes, the HSA does not protect your probes. The HSA is purely a computer-defense program. When a probe teams attacks, the computer automatically lets them engage each other. The HSA only comes into effect when the enemy probe team try to perform an action against an undefended city/unit.
VictorK posted 05-28-99 02:38 PM ET
What? When I play the game, a rover probe team costs 30 minerals to build. An infantry probe team costs 20 minerals. Infantry probe teams are useful in the early going as counter-probes.
K posted 05-28-99 02:50 PM ET
Wow.
Wow, again.
I knew I spend hours reading this forumn for a reason.
I'd didn't realize that armored probes gained Morale upgrades from facilities. If it's true, then I'm never building an unarmored probe again.
Call me Bond. James Bond.
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Author	Topic: Newest Batch of Bugs Found in US 3 SMAC - To Probe, Or Not To Probe
Darkstar	posted 05-10-99 05:44 PM ET Greetings. These may have already been reported, but as I have yet to find a public list of bugs other than this forum, I will post them ANYWAYS. Most of these bugs are Probe related... Bug 1- If Sky-Hydroponic Satellite is currently being built, cannot QUEUE any more. Note: Can Queue Sky-Hydroponic Satellites as long as the city HAS an Aerospace Complex, and is NOT already building a Sky-Hydro. Bug 2- When a Probe Team with Armor is the only defender in a base under attack, it defends like any combat unit. When another non-probe team is the defender in a base and loses, all "armored" probe teams are lost as if non-combat units. Bug 3- When designing a Rover Probe team, if the team is given Armor, the correct Armored Probe Team Rover graphic is displayed. If left unarmored, graphic is that of infantry probe team. Bug 4- When updating Infantry Probe Unit Design to Rover Probe Unit Design, they REPLACE the base Infantry Probe team slot rather than take a new one. This is inconsistant behavior, for when you upgrade Infantry Formers, they take a NEW slot, not the base slot for that design. Bug 5- AI does not use Naval Probe Teams. While it was a great boost to myself to think and use these, the AI should know this basic probe tactic. Bug 6- AI wastes Probe Teams against Faction with Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. Bug 7- Can't place probe equipment on Aircraft chassis. If a plane stays in the air for 2 years, then that is more than long enough to subvert it. Air Probe teams not being able to subvert Non-Air units would be acceptable. Otherwise, "Guardian Angel" tactics are just too effective. Bug 8- Wrong User Interface Behavior - When warned that the AI city has new security interlocks, if you hit the ESCAPE key, SMAC acts as if the user had clicked OK. This is incorrect behaviour for Windows. ESCAPE = Cancel (When cancel is an option). This problem also occurs on the "Warning! Odds to Greatly Against Us" Screen. Bug 9- Have to use Control+Shift+S or Control+Shift+M to place farms and mines and solar-collectors on Volcanic tiles. Bug 10- Computer AI Formers are still building Bunkers before they have the technology to do so. Bug 11- Can place Bore Holes on [Garland] Crater Rim, which is definately SLOPED. Bug 12- Aquafier Rivers running up hill. River drilled in 1100m square and runs UP to 1313m tile neighbor before running down. Looks odd. Bug 13- Aquafier River running up and over [Garland] crater rim (from inner rim outward). Bug 14- Council voting to raise and lower sea levels when my FACTION is the only faction with SPACE FARING capability! As I was at war with the world, my people certainly aren't going to allow them to use OUR launch capabilities to put up solar shades. If all space-faring factions vote no/use someone-else's pads, then Solar Shade (and other launch required options) should be cancelled DISPITE votes. Bug 15- All Factions with Orbital Defences Pods should be able to destroy Council voted option to place Solar Shades/Salvage Unity Core/Melt Polar Ice, unless opposed by factions with OTHER Orbital Defence Pods. -Darkstar
Urban Ranger	posted 05-10-99 11:06 PM ET Several Observations: 1. The basic probe team is already built on a rover chasis. That's why they can move 2 squares. 2. Non-combat units can defend, but if there is any combat units around, those take precedence. If the last combat unit is destroyed, all non-combat units are also destroyed as per existing rules. But non-combat units should not be destroyed that way in a base or bunker. Just MHO. 3. Can't put "air superiority" SA in probe team slots either. 4. I also noticed computer formers going around building bunkers when they don't have the tech to do so.
Darkstar	posted 05-11-99 01:43 AM ET Urban... When I first gain Probe Teams, my probe team says 0-1-1. What does yours say? A one movement means its Infantry, not Rover. If a unit has ARMOR, it is no longer a non-combat unit. That was what I was complaining about. The Defender Probe Team (0-2-1), being a COMBAT unit, should not have been destroyed when the SynthMetal Garrison was defeated... I just think that you should be able to probe air units since the bloody things are hanging there for over a year. If a probe team can seize control of a tank or a battleship, why not an air unit? And then you could seize control of Cruise Missiles and Planet Busters... They should be SIMPLIER than hacking and bribing Capital Ships and Missile Toting Infantry Platoons... It would also help the AI deal with Air Warfare and Air Defence better... Make you have to stack your air units for protection at a minimum. -Darkstar
cousLee	posted 05-11-99 06:00 AM ET Darkstar, mine show up 1-1-2. in order to get the infantry probe, you have to design it.
Urban Ranger	posted 05-11-99 07:04 AM ET Darkstar, my probe teams show up as 0-1-2. I wondered about it, but since they can definitely move 2 spaces, they have to be based on the speeder chasis. As for combat/non-combat units, it seems that putting armor on a non-combat unit, i.e., any units that does not have a big gun, doesn't make it into a combat unit. The only advantage I can think of for putting armor on your non-combat units (probe teams, formers, etc.), is for them to have a chance to disengage.
Darkstar	posted 05-11-99 02:17 PM ET Are you using Auto-Design units? I have noticed that the AI's Probe teams are moving 6 road tiles (=2 movement). I don't use Auto-Design as I rarely use about half of what the Auto Designers want to use. For that matter, I also don't use Auto-Prune as it throws out (obsoletes) too many of my units without asking me, and has a bad habit of obsoleting my choppers whenever the bombers are updated otherwise. Since I often get Probe Teams before Rovers, I think this is the ACTUAL culprit. I get Probes, which as an auto basic unit, shows up in my lists, using Infantry as chassis. Once I get Rovers, and update the Probe team Design, I expect it to take a new slot, just as Rover Formers do. But it doesn't. Go figure... As far as combat versus non-combat goes... a Transport Foil without Armor is Non-Combat. A Transport Foil With Armor IS Combat. It defends water bases like a combat ship, and it does not recieve the -50% modifier of the non-combat. My ARMORED PROBE TEAM acted the same way. When an opponent unit attacked a city with an Armored Probe in it, the probe defended as a infantry, and did not have the "Non-Combat" unit penalty. However, when the synthmetal garrison unit DIED in my base, it wiped out the Armored Probe Team as if it was a non-armored one. Bug. It can't be both a combat and non-combat unit... The difference is obviously that they hard coded the destruction of probe teams in the same tile as the last defending unit. They did not do that with "Transports". Bad coding habits on their part strike again. Good thing they don't work for a living... -Darkstar
cousLee	posted 05-11-99 08:00 PM ET No, I don't use auto design either, although I do have auto-prune on. I have a game right now, that i got probe teams before rovers. it shows up as 1-1-2. I had to manually create intantry probe teams. I was also able to use the early rover cheat (even though I don't use it, i was ABLE to if so inclined). I have not had the instance of a non probe garrison being destroyed when another probe garrison is present. I personally don't use probes as garrisons, I armor them to help protect them on their journey to enemy bases. I do know this much, armor on a probe has no effect when battling another probe team. I would agree that they (armored probe) should not be destroyed when a non-probe unit is defeated.
Mergle	posted 05-12-99 03:08 AM ET I concur with Darkstar's non-combat comments. Further, although my non-combat units all die (even with perim def) when my last combat unit is killed in a city, this doesn't seem to happen to the AI - I have to kill his non-coms separately. Has anyone else noticed this?
Urban Ranger	posted 05-12-99 03:50 AM ET Darkstar - no, I don't use auto design. The probe team shows up as soon as I get Planetary Networks as a basic design with 2 movement points. I also have a problem with auto purge, though it's the other way around: it leaves many empty, obsolete designs sitting around so I have to deal with that awful scroll bar. Ugh. Mergle - no, I don't stick my non-combat units, other than probe teams, inside bases. But you are right, even after I trounced the last combat unit in an enemy base I still have to plow through all those formers and transport foils.
StarChaser Tyger	posted 05-12-99 06:27 PM ET My probe teams also start as 0-1-1, before I get rovers. Once I get rovers, I can redesign them and the 'rover probes' replace the originals, with 0-1-2. Has anyone else run across the instant Demon Boil? I was trying to get a couple of small mindworm units (Playing the Gaians) to patrol a wad of fungus to scare out more mindworms...when I tried to use the waypoints for the patrol, I got a green line that shot off the screen toward a city, and the pre-boil unit suddenly turned into a Demon boil. It exhibits all the properties of a 'real' demon boil, ie it's not just a graphics glitch. (It can thump units much larger than the pre-boils could, and all the information on it says 'demon'...)
Urban Ranger	posted 05-13-99 12:01 PM ET Looks like another glitch alright. Have you been able to duplicate it?
marc420w	posted 05-13-99 05:56 PM ET Just another note on the aerial subversion discussion...... There are times where the probe teams are described as super-hacker type units. In that case, the notion of hackers getting into the software of an air-unit and forcing it into your control seems extremely possible, the notion of probe teams specially designed to go after enemy air units seems plausible. In terms of game balance, I may argue though that these units should be denied the ability to attack ground or naval units OR enemy cities. Having a probe team with a range of 12 squares would be lethal. A huge amount of enemy cities would be instantly vulnerable. Following the logic out to absurdity, how about ground probe units with AA ability to fight off the enemy aerial probe teams. Has anyone tried Probe 'copters?
LocustOfChiron	posted 05-13-99 08:49 PM ET Here's a scary and vicious thought: stasis gravship probe team.
Warp Warrior	posted 05-15-99 10:44 AM ET Playing PK, Have HSA, my city has a probe team in it. Yang drops two probe teams off next to city, one trys to infiltrate the city and starts attacking my probe unit, ends up dieing because mine is elite. Are probe teams not protected by the HSA (normal)or is this a glitch? Every other time I have seen another faction try to infiltrate a city (has no probe team in it) before, the attacking probe team dies trying because of HSA. Does the fact that there is a probe team in the city override the computer checking for HSA? I thought having the HSA made all things immune from other factions probe teams, am I mistaken?.
Urban Ranger	posted 05-15-99 12:22 PM ET Speaking of probe teams, I want to know why I couldn't put cloaking on probe teams. On the same topic, somebody mentioned you can put probe on a military unit to make it free from support. But that seems impossible. Probe replaces any weapon that unit might have.
Warp Warrior	posted 05-15-99 09:31 PM ET Yea I read that too, they in theory should be just as good a defender as anybody else, but don't put a "real" military unit in the same city or it will suddenly be the one taking all the damage and if destroyed will also kill the probe teams. The computer seems to forget that the armored probe team is a military unit since it does have armor, but probe teams get grouped in with non combatants when the last military unit in the city gets killed.
Urban Ranger	posted 05-16-99 07:07 AM ET Funny you mentioned that. I always thought that military units are those with guns in their weapon slots. I can't remember whether my probe team got the -50% non-combat penalty last time it was attacked by a hostile military unit, but I distinctly remembered that it has a 0.01 strength. Totally worthless as a defender.
icosahedron	posted 05-21-99 04:39 PM ET The correct way to deal with this is to disallow armor for probe teams. They are spies, right? Not conventional military units. And the lack of need for support of an armored probe unit is evidence that such was not properly anticipated and is a bug. Look, if probes have armor, they are acting as infantry in a defensive sense, so they should at least lose their ZOC and movement advantages, and they should require support, just like armored formers and colony pods. But even more to the point, they are spies, dang it! They should not be able to act in a military capacity at all, and should simply die when attacked by a military unit. Strength of 0.1? Ha! They are going to die anyway, so why not just make it automatic? Of course, if spies are cornered by armed soldiers they are just dead. If you want it to be interesting (and perhaps to help balance the power of probes), make them less visible (give them some natural cloaking or something to represent their stealth), and give military units who do find them a chance to capture and interrogate them, perhaps leading to gain of tech or some such. Another reason probes should just disappear when attacked by military units is that they cannot offer any real resistance, so they should not be able to delay the taking of a square for even one turn. On the other hand, colony pods and formers should be able to offer some resistance, and should have to be taken out one by one just as military units are. Maybe a probe stacked with a military unit will have a positive effect on the morale of the unit? Maybe the unit could fight at the higher of its morale and the probe's morale, to reflect the higher level of intelligence and planning presumably represented by an elite probe team? Just some thoughts. - icosahedron
Darkstar	posted 05-24-99 01:43 PM ET Probe teams can be spies. They can also be those elite SEAL commandos. Are you trying to tell me that a Seal team can't decimate a normal military unit? The problem seems to be a lack of consistancy about military units having Weapons or Armor, and that SMAC units are not on the same SCALE as each other. I see Scouts as being a single man to small recon team (depending on the technology) and most other land units as being between platoon and brigade sized... Consistancy is not one of SMAC's strong points (IMHO). -Darkstar
Khizr	posted 05-24-99 04:37 PM ET Regarding Bug 8, this behavior also occurs when you click on "hurry" in the production queue - if you hit "ESC," SMAC acts like you clicked on OK. --- "Bug 8- Wrong User Interface Behavior - When warned that the AI city has new security interlocks, if you hit the ESCAPE key, SMAC acts as if the user had clicked OK. This is incorrect behaviour for Windows. ESCAPE = Cancel (When cancel is an option). This problem also occurs on the "Warning! Odds to Greatly Against Us" Screen."
Urban Ranger	posted 05-25-99 01:02 AM ET Darkstar, Probe teams can't be special forces units. If they are, they should require support like regular military units and can sure fight a lot better. Also, probe teams aren't allowed to sabotage an enemy unit a la spies in Civ 2, who are closer to commandoes. Lastly, they don't have a "formal existence" according to the manual, and special forces units certainly have a formal existence.
K	posted 05-25-99 07:03 PM ET Am I the only one whose played with the "aplha.txt"? I'm not sure if this will work, but if you want these badass probes then try this: Go to the alpha.txt, then find the special abilities section, read the documentaion, and change the required "1" to a "0" where is acts as a "May not be put on this and this kind of unit." There are sections for everything, so I assume you can make flying probe teams and AAA teams. But why Cloaked? Probe teams already ignore ZOC's. Personally, I'd take Amphibious Teams. Much cheaper than those damned Foil teams.
Darkstar	posted 05-25-99 11:33 PM ET K, I haven't played with the Alpha.txt up to now. After patch to version 4.0, I probably will experiment. Urban Ranger, what? Are you kidding me? Most of the special forces aren't recognized as official existing units. I got relatives and friends that spent a large part of the 50's and 60's doing lots of naughty things in places other than Vietnam. I have no reason to DOUBT them, nor their surviving team-mates, and yet, they never existed. Nor most of their peers and peer-teams. They were stationed in Fort Briggs (I think it's Brigg's that had the paperwork) officially "mowing grass". Most of the Elite Special Force Teams in the world aren't "real" or official. Makes plausible deniability easier. Also, people can't leak what they don't know, yadda yadda yadda... I don't know why probe teams can't sabotage other units. Probably a design decision to make them seem less like Civ spys and diplomats. I'd PREFER if probe equipment was simply a special ability. Then you could out and out make SEALS and other special forces teams. And then they would require upkeep (Hey, they have lots of special eq, and you should have to pay SOMETHING to maintain those things). -Darkstar
K	posted 05-26-99 03:12 AM ET Don't be afiad to play with the alpha.txt, because it was put into text format so that players COULD change rules they didn't like. Oh, and I think the point is that Probe Teams are such badasses that they can find thier own resources. How often did you ever see James Bond pick up his paycheck. Almost every movie he'd make a bundle of cash at the casino, and he always had the best stuff. with Q for a couple of gismos now and then, and he was set. I think a probe team does no officially exist because by being independantly financially and materially, they can't be linked to thier bosses. And Navy SEALs always seemed more like cloaked infantry to me.
VictorK	posted 05-27-99 07:56 AM ET I agree that armored probe teams should be banned. Not only that they require no support, they fight with a higher morale bonus than other units. They receive the same morale bonus as other land units from Command Centers and Bioenhancement Centers, and also from certain technologies that improve probe team morale.
Plato90s	posted 05-28-99 10:15 AM ET Just to clear up some rules.... Probes are always killed when the last unit in a city is killed. Formers are not, so you have to kill them individually. The same thing happens to the AI, so it's not a bug, just a strange rule. Since a rover probe team costs exactly the same as infantry probe team, who would bother even making an infantry probe team? Yes, the HSA does not protect your probes. The HSA is purely a computer-defense program. When a probe teams attacks, the computer automatically lets them engage each other. The HSA only comes into effect when the enemy probe team try to perform an action against an undefended city/unit.
VictorK	posted 05-28-99 02:38 PM ET What? When I play the game, a rover probe team costs 30 minerals to build. An infantry probe team costs 20 minerals. Infantry probe teams are useful in the early going as counter-probes.
K	posted 05-28-99 02:50 PM ET Wow. Wow, again. I knew I spend hours reading this forumn for a reason. I'd didn't realize that armored probes gained Morale upgrades from facilities. If it's true, then I'm never building an unarmored probe again. Call me Bond. James Bond.