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Author Topic:   Mindworm Capture Rates False

Seelie posted 02-20-99 11:26 PM ET
I've kept track in over a dozen games for well over 300 total battles and the mindworm capture rates are way off. My 25% rate is 1 in 9 captured. My 50% rate is 1 in 6, and for some reason, my 75% rate is only 1 in 32 captured. I have noticed that I don't always get the capture failure message when I attack, so I think that the problem is that atacking them doesn't always initiate the capture routine. Or are there unlisted modifiers?
Schole posted 02-21-99 04:17 AM ET
This is unofficial, but I remember Brian Reynolds wrote that they have made capturing more difficult to balance things: the more native life forms you control (or captured?), the less the chance you capture new ones.
CaptComal posted 02-21-99 09:30 PM ET
Yes ... I think they made some "formula" changes.
However ... they also then should provide errata to the manual for these kind of changes. (it should give the manual page number and what the text should be changed to ... a LOT of us play SMAC seriously and use the manual extensively).
Maybe the next patch (3.0) might be able to include a Manual Errata text file?
Seelie posted 02-21-99 10:31 PM ET
That stuff usually is spelled out in the Readme files. The patch came with a readme file that listes all (supposedly) of the changes since the original release, and the original came with a readme that mentioned stuff newer than the manual. I'm curious why, if what you say is true, it isn't in the readme files? I'd like to hear an official response on this one.
Keith Bennett posted 02-23-99 05:04 AM ET
I have similar problems. Some games I am able to successfully farm mindworms and isles of the deep. Other games I have killed several dozen and only been able to capture *1* (gaian).
That game, it wasn't until I jumped to green economics that I was able to catch more that 1 swarm.
I have also noticed that in the games where I can't catch the worms, the worms are more agressive and more apt to spontaniously generate in fungus.
Sculder posted 02-23-99 05:15 AM ET
i dunno about how the capture works... but i think it's like how high your chance of capturing a mindworm... and not the total u can capture... so it's like u have a 50% chance of capturing this mindworm... it doesn't matter how many u have met...
Schole posted 02-23-99 06:08 AM ET
Sculder: we all think the % means that way, but it seems they now treat that % as a base, and having more worms will reduce that %.
Sculder posted 02-23-99 06:58 AM ET
i know that's what u all think... that's why i'm telling u that it may not be like what u think it is...
Zoetrope posted 02-23-99 11:25 PM ET
No, Sculder, if it were 50% chance per worm, then by the laws of statistics it would be 75% chance to catch at least one worm out of two, 87.5% for at least one worm out of three, and the chance of catching NONE out of nine would be 511 to 1 against. Seelie reported a capture rate of 1 in 32 at a nominal 75% probability per worm. The odds of that happening are - wait for it - over eight billion to one against!
Clearly that's NOT what the percentage figures mean in the latest version of the game.
Sculder posted 02-24-99 12:27 AM ET
well... if that's what u all think, i can't do anything about that right?... i was telling u what i thought... no hard feelings...
Seelie posted 02-24-99 01:46 PM ET
Like I said, I would really like to see an official response on this one. The % really doesn't indicate anything accurately. IF there are modifiers, what are they? I've looked in the modifiable files to check for a formula for capture but I couldn't find anything. And I've got several hundred more battles fought with little change in those capture rates (My 75% is down to 1 in 24 now, but the others are the same). Clearly, something isn't being handled properly or they have undocumented modifiers and I'd love to know why they don't want to tell us what they are.
Keith Bennett posted 02-24-99 10:52 PM ET
I don't offhand remember where I saw this (Usenet?) but I recall Brian saying that they implemented a -10% modifier for each mind worm, down to 10%. I don't know if that is per captured mind worm, per surviving captured mind worm, or per total (built + captured) mind worm (and / or isle of the deep - anyone captured locusts?).
I also don't know if it was implemented, but I do know that the strategy guide (I flipped though it) talks about the mind worm farming strategy, and mentions that there were 2 changes added to weaken the effects of mind worm farming - but doesn't say exactly what.
I have a vague recollection that the second might be that mind worms don't have as much success capturing mind worms as other units do.
Sculder posted 02-25-99 02:30 AM ET
well... i remember the first time i managed to capture mindworms... it was the computer's turn and they moved the mindworm next to my base, guess they didn't have enough movement points... well... next turn i use the infantry stationed in the base to attack them, guess what?... i manage to capture 15+ mindworms with just one guy... hehee... didn't think that would happen...
Seelie posted 02-25-99 01:21 PM ET
I've also confirmed that the computer doesn't check to capture the mindworms if you have less than a full move remaining. I don't know if this is a bug, but I have several save files that document it clearly, the game just does not even try to capture them unless you have a full move remaining. This makes it all but impossible for mindworms to capture each other, and even so for infantry if you have the SP that lets you run around in fungus like it is a road. (Xenoempathy dome?) I'm going to start making a bunch of empathic hovertanks and send them into the fungus looking for worms to see if this covers the whole of the false capture rates.
RLeMaster posted 03-02-99 02:20 PM ET
I noticed a message during a recent encounter when trying to capture mindworms. Not sure if this is a standard thing or what but the message stated that a higher mind was controlling the worms. Only noticed that message once....most of the time the messages scroll of the bottom of the screen faster than I can read them anyways and not all that are stated are saved on the message screen.
weregamer posted 03-02-99 09:40 PM ET
RLEmaster: though as mystified as everyone about mindworm capture in general, I can explain that one for you. When lifeforms are generated in response to your eco-damage, they are being directly controlled by the planetary web, and you can't capture them. Hence that message.
gotag posted 03-02-99 10:01 PM ET
Have you noticed any change in odds whether the mindworms are in a stack or not. I have found in my games that when I attack a single unit the odds work out about right, while when its a stack I rarely capture them.
gotag
zengaian posted 03-03-99 12:59 AM ET
Hi
I've experienced the same problem with capturing the mindworms/isles/locusts but generally found it harder later in the game. At first I thought the odds must be wrong then I considered adjusting the odds depending on the moral/lifecycle effects (ie adding 12.5% for each level so that a demon boil had 75% more chance of evading capture than a hatchling) and the odds actually work out about right. Hence if you want to capture more mature worms you need to use more experienced units to even out the odds again. Maybe I'm wrong in this, I just assumed that the combat rules applied to capture as well...
zengaian
Seelie posted 03-03-99 09:19 PM ET
My stats were calculated by excluding the boils that come up after the Voice of Planet scene. As for the odds varied on comparative boil life-cycle state, I've found that has a negligeable influence. I typically use Demon Boils against mature boils and I'm way off the supposed numbers. Also, as I said earlier, watch your messages when you fight worms. If you have less than a full move remaining no capture attempt is made at all. I proved this by disbanding all my worms, and using infantry at 75% capture rates. After 100 attempts, not one capture when I had less than a full move. And he was Elite at the time and only met one Demon Boil (I had the sp for treating fungus like roads). So the-it gets harder for the more worms you have-theory doesn't seem to be part of the function. And I'd really like to know why Firaxis has completely black-balled this thread. There is no documentation on Mindworm capture rates outside the 25%/50%/75% from your planet rating, and that is clearly false, yet after all this time, not one request for a save file, not one "we're working on it," not one explanation, nothing. Total silence. On the positive side, since they're so good about asking for documentation on bugs they don't know about, I'm pretty confident they already know about this and are working on it. Still, I'd like some official response on this.
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Author	Topic: Mindworm Capture Rates False
Seelie	posted 02-20-99 11:26 PM ET I've kept track in over a dozen games for well over 300 total battles and the mindworm capture rates are way off. My 25% rate is 1 in 9 captured. My 50% rate is 1 in 6, and for some reason, my 75% rate is only 1 in 32 captured. I have noticed that I don't always get the capture failure message when I attack, so I think that the problem is that atacking them doesn't always initiate the capture routine. Or are there unlisted modifiers?
Schole	posted 02-21-99 04:17 AM ET This is unofficial, but I remember Brian Reynolds wrote that they have made capturing more difficult to balance things: the more native life forms you control (or captured?), the less the chance you capture new ones.
CaptComal	posted 02-21-99 09:30 PM ET Yes ... I think they made some "formula" changes. However ... they also then should provide errata to the manual for these kind of changes. (it should give the manual page number and what the text should be changed to ... a LOT of us play SMAC seriously and use the manual extensively). Maybe the next patch (3.0) might be able to include a Manual Errata text file?
Seelie	posted 02-21-99 10:31 PM ET That stuff usually is spelled out in the Readme files. The patch came with a readme file that listes all (supposedly) of the changes since the original release, and the original came with a readme that mentioned stuff newer than the manual. I'm curious why, if what you say is true, it isn't in the readme files? I'd like to hear an official response on this one.
Keith Bennett	posted 02-23-99 05:04 AM ET I have similar problems. Some games I am able to successfully farm mindworms and isles of the deep. Other games I have killed several dozen and only been able to capture 1 (gaian). That game, it wasn't until I jumped to green economics that I was able to catch more that 1 swarm. I have also noticed that in the games where I can't catch the worms, the worms are more agressive and more apt to spontaniously generate in fungus.
Sculder	posted 02-23-99 05:15 AM ET i dunno about how the capture works... but i think it's like how high your chance of capturing a mindworm... and not the total u can capture... so it's like u have a 50% chance of capturing this mindworm... it doesn't matter how many u have met...
Schole	posted 02-23-99 06:08 AM ET Sculder: we all think the % means that way, but it seems they now treat that % as a base, and having more worms will reduce that %.
Sculder	posted 02-23-99 06:58 AM ET i know that's what u all think... that's why i'm telling u that it may not be like what u think it is...
Zoetrope	posted 02-23-99 11:25 PM ET No, Sculder, if it were 50% chance per worm, then by the laws of statistics it would be 75% chance to catch at least one worm out of two, 87.5% for at least one worm out of three, and the chance of catching NONE out of nine would be 511 to 1 against. Seelie reported a capture rate of 1 in 32 at a nominal 75% probability per worm. The odds of that happening are - wait for it - over eight billion to one against! Clearly that's NOT what the percentage figures mean in the latest version of the game.
Sculder	posted 02-24-99 12:27 AM ET well... if that's what u all think, i can't do anything about that right?... i was telling u what i thought... no hard feelings...
Seelie	posted 02-24-99 01:46 PM ET Like I said, I would really like to see an official response on this one. The % really doesn't indicate anything accurately. IF there are modifiers, what are they? I've looked in the modifiable files to check for a formula for capture but I couldn't find anything. And I've got several hundred more battles fought with little change in those capture rates (My 75% is down to 1 in 24 now, but the others are the same). Clearly, something isn't being handled properly or they have undocumented modifiers and I'd love to know why they don't want to tell us what they are.
Keith Bennett	posted 02-24-99 10:52 PM ET I don't offhand remember where I saw this (Usenet?) but I recall Brian saying that they implemented a -10% modifier for each mind worm, down to 10%. I don't know if that is per captured mind worm, per surviving captured mind worm, or per total (built + captured) mind worm (and / or isle of the deep - anyone captured locusts?). I also don't know if it was implemented, but I do know that the strategy guide (I flipped though it) talks about the mind worm farming strategy, and mentions that there were 2 changes added to weaken the effects of mind worm farming - but doesn't say exactly what. I have a vague recollection that the second might be that mind worms don't have as much success capturing mind worms as other units do.
Sculder	posted 02-25-99 02:30 AM ET well... i remember the first time i managed to capture mindworms... it was the computer's turn and they moved the mindworm next to my base, guess they didn't have enough movement points... well... next turn i use the infantry stationed in the base to attack them, guess what?... i manage to capture 15+ mindworms with just one guy... hehee... didn't think that would happen...
Seelie	posted 02-25-99 01:21 PM ET I've also confirmed that the computer doesn't check to capture the mindworms if you have less than a full move remaining. I don't know if this is a bug, but I have several save files that document it clearly, the game just does not even try to capture them unless you have a full move remaining. This makes it all but impossible for mindworms to capture each other, and even so for infantry if you have the SP that lets you run around in fungus like it is a road. (Xenoempathy dome?) I'm going to start making a bunch of empathic hovertanks and send them into the fungus looking for worms to see if this covers the whole of the false capture rates.
RLeMaster	posted 03-02-99 02:20 PM ET I noticed a message during a recent encounter when trying to capture mindworms. Not sure if this is a standard thing or what but the message stated that a higher mind was controlling the worms. Only noticed that message once....most of the time the messages scroll of the bottom of the screen faster than I can read them anyways and not all that are stated are saved on the message screen.
weregamer	posted 03-02-99 09:40 PM ET RLEmaster: though as mystified as everyone about mindworm capture in general, I can explain that one for you. When lifeforms are generated in response to your eco-damage, they are being directly controlled by the planetary web, and you can't capture them. Hence that message.
gotag	posted 03-02-99 10:01 PM ET Have you noticed any change in odds whether the mindworms are in a stack or not. I have found in my games that when I attack a single unit the odds work out about right, while when its a stack I rarely capture them. gotag
zengaian	posted 03-03-99 12:59 AM ET Hi I've experienced the same problem with capturing the mindworms/isles/locusts but generally found it harder later in the game. At first I thought the odds must be wrong then I considered adjusting the odds depending on the moral/lifecycle effects (ie adding 12.5% for each level so that a demon boil had 75% more chance of evading capture than a hatchling) and the odds actually work out about right. Hence if you want to capture more mature worms you need to use more experienced units to even out the odds again. Maybe I'm wrong in this, I just assumed that the combat rules applied to capture as well... zengaian
Seelie	posted 03-03-99 09:19 PM ET My stats were calculated by excluding the boils that come up after the Voice of Planet scene. As for the odds varied on comparative boil life-cycle state, I've found that has a negligeable influence. I typically use Demon Boils against mature boils and I'm way off the supposed numbers. Also, as I said earlier, watch your messages when you fight worms. If you have less than a full move remaining no capture attempt is made at all. I proved this by disbanding all my worms, and using infantry at 75% capture rates. After 100 attempts, not one capture when I had less than a full move. And he was Elite at the time and only met one Demon Boil (I had the sp for treating fungus like roads). So the-it gets harder for the more worms you have-theory doesn't seem to be part of the function. And I'd really like to know why Firaxis has completely black-balled this thread. There is no documentation on Mindworm capture rates outside the 25%/50%/75% from your planet rating, and that is clearly false, yet after all this time, not one request for a save file, not one "we're working on it," not one explanation, nothing. Total silence. On the positive side, since they're so good about asking for documentation on bugs they don't know about, I'm pretty confident they already know about this and are working on it. Still, I'd like some official response on this.