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Author Topic:   1-4-1 wins over 5-4-1 ??

Sharp posted 03-08-99 05:55 AM ET
I really need to know how the system works to determine the winning unit in a battle.
I have no idea why a 1-4-1 will beat a 5-4-1. Please tell me the way so i can enjoy the game more. Thanks to those who can help.
NuWav posted 03-08-99 08:39 AM ET
Was the 5-4-1 a very green unit while the 1-4-1 an elite? Which unit was attacking which? Did the faction with the 1-4-1 unit have any nearby sensors or other factors that raised its defense or offense rating +??%?
It could be possible, but I woudl wager that the 5-4-1 unit was attacking a 1-4-1 unit with some extra defense rating factors.
StickFigure posted 03-08-99 08:42 AM ET
Even straight-up the odds are probably only 5:4 in favor of the 5-4-1 if on attack.
Nothing in life is guaranteed.
stick
White Tiger posted 03-08-99 12:39 PM ET
Aren't battles determined by the calculated Strengths for a unit (which includes all the % benefits and takeaways)? Also, the unit with the greater Power points should have the greater odds of winning if the computed strenghts are equal. However, I have not found this to be the case. There must be some other way the game is computing the winners. I would like to know the answer to this one myself. I almost quite a game over this. Losing superior units to inferiour forces was really boiling my potatoes.
Verminlord posted 03-08-99 01:02 PM ET
This is the way I understand it. The first # is the attack strength and the second # is the defense strength (before modifiers). If the 5-4-1 is attacking the 1-4-1 then the results are resolved by the 5 for the attacker and the 4 for the defender. That's why you can make "cheap" garrison troops to guard your bases.
The attackers # comes from the type of weapon being used. The defenders # comes from the type of armor being used.
I could be all wrong on this, but, that's the way I understand it.
Ron
Gord McLeod posted 03-08-99 01:34 PM ET
You're correct, the units are like this:
5-4-1: attack 5, defense 4, movement(strength?) 1
1-4-1: attack 1, defense 4, movement(strength?) 1
So you're looking at two units which are very similar, except that the latter unit has been designed as a defensive unit, and a relatively strong one. I would expect it to hold up fairly well against an assault from the first unit.
You also have to consider the other modifiers as other people pointed out. Morale will come into play - if the defender is elite and the attacker green, I would expect the attacker to lose quickly. The location of the units on the map will also play a large role in how successful each is in its role - both these units appear to be infantry (the final 1 rating gives this away) so if the defender is in a base, the attacker is going to gain a +50% bonus to its attack. If they're out in the world at large, rocky terrain or fungus can add to the defender's chances of success.
Gord McLeod posted 03-08-99 01:36 PM ET
Sorry, that should have been +25% bonus for the infantry...
weregamer posted 03-08-99 02:15 PM ET
HEY, FOLKS! If you want to see what the real odds are, TURN ON THE PREFERENCE to see the odds before your attack!
If this happened on a computer turn, and you have a burning need to know, use the scenario editor to set up the identical situation and then play that scenario with the "show me the odds" preference on.

Some things that you already know from the manual: The attack strength of the defender and the defense strength of the attacker are *irrelevant*. The outcome of a battle HAS A RANDOM ELEMENT, so even unlikely things *can* happen occasionally.
For what it's worth, I'll try to compose a worst case scenario:
Attacker is infantry, so assume it is attacking a city. Assume no perimeter defense or tachyon field. A+25%
Assume attacker is Elite A+50%
Assume defender is Very Green D-50%
Assume attacker is a Believer A+25%
At this point, assume both units have the same number of hit points (same reactor).
So the net strengths are 1 * 200% vs. 4 * 50%, or only 1-2. That means that 1 time in 3 the attacker would win this battle.
If the attacker has, say, a fusion reactor and the defender has fission, things get a little more complicated because the attacker can suffer damage instead of being destroyed, but then will have lower effectiveness so then it would be more likely to lose overall. So the odds would be something like ((1/3) + (2/3 * 1/5) to (2/3 * 4/5). That's 7/15 to 8/15 or 7-8, so the fusion sentinel would win almost half the time over the fission squad.
Got it?
JaimeWolf posted 03-08-99 06:33 PM ET
Man it really gets complicated doesn't it?
One more example ...
A Disciplined Believer Impact Squad (4-2-1) attacks an Elite Hive Synthmetal Sentinels in a base (with perimeter defense).
First up - the only value of the believer's numbers that matters is the attack value - 4.
The only value of the Hive that matters is the defense - 2.
Then we need to look at modifiers.
Believers = +25% Fanatic.
Infantry vs. base = +25%
Disciplined = +0%
4 + 25% = 5
5 + 25% = 6.25
So the final attack value is 6.25
Hive - no intrinsic bonus
Perimeter defense = +100%
Elite = +50%
2 + 100% = 4
4 + 50% = 6
So the final defense value is 6
Then when we weigh up the two combatants the odds are 6.25:6 or 25:24 in favour of the attacker.
Does that help? The keys are that the attack value of one is compared to the defense value of the other and the bonuses are applied sequentially.
Chees
James
DarkDragon posted 03-11-99 10:24 PM ET
Alas, you appear to be forgetting a part of combat not calculated into the strengths part... Or so it seems. The projectile/energy/binary things really do make a difference from my opionion, if only they would actually modify the strength value so we could see what's going on with that
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Author	Topic: 1-4-1 wins over 5-4-1 ??
Sharp	posted 03-08-99 05:55 AM ET I really need to know how the system works to determine the winning unit in a battle. I have no idea why a 1-4-1 will beat a 5-4-1. Please tell me the way so i can enjoy the game more. Thanks to those who can help.
NuWav	posted 03-08-99 08:39 AM ET Was the 5-4-1 a very green unit while the 1-4-1 an elite? Which unit was attacking which? Did the faction with the 1-4-1 unit have any nearby sensors or other factors that raised its defense or offense rating +??%? It could be possible, but I woudl wager that the 5-4-1 unit was attacking a 1-4-1 unit with some extra defense rating factors.
StickFigure	posted 03-08-99 08:42 AM ET Even straight-up the odds are probably only 5:4 in favor of the 5-4-1 if on attack. Nothing in life is guaranteed. stick
White Tiger	posted 03-08-99 12:39 PM ET Aren't battles determined by the calculated Strengths for a unit (which includes all the % benefits and takeaways)? Also, the unit with the greater Power points should have the greater odds of winning if the computed strenghts are equal. However, I have not found this to be the case. There must be some other way the game is computing the winners. I would like to know the answer to this one myself. I almost quite a game over this. Losing superior units to inferiour forces was really boiling my potatoes.
Verminlord	posted 03-08-99 01:02 PM ET This is the way I understand it. The first # is the attack strength and the second # is the defense strength (before modifiers). If the 5-4-1 is attacking the 1-4-1 then the results are resolved by the 5 for the attacker and the 4 for the defender. That's why you can make "cheap" garrison troops to guard your bases. The attackers # comes from the type of weapon being used. The defenders # comes from the type of armor being used. I could be all wrong on this, but, that's the way I understand it. Ron
Gord McLeod	posted 03-08-99 01:34 PM ET You're correct, the units are like this: 5-4-1: attack 5, defense 4, movement(strength?) 1 1-4-1: attack 1, defense 4, movement(strength?) 1 So you're looking at two units which are very similar, except that the latter unit has been designed as a defensive unit, and a relatively strong one. I would expect it to hold up fairly well against an assault from the first unit. You also have to consider the other modifiers as other people pointed out. Morale will come into play - if the defender is elite and the attacker green, I would expect the attacker to lose quickly. The location of the units on the map will also play a large role in how successful each is in its role - both these units appear to be infantry (the final 1 rating gives this away) so if the defender is in a base, the attacker is going to gain a +50% bonus to its attack. If they're out in the world at large, rocky terrain or fungus can add to the defender's chances of success.
Gord McLeod	posted 03-08-99 01:36 PM ET Sorry, that should have been +25% bonus for the infantry...
weregamer	posted 03-08-99 02:15 PM ET HEY, FOLKS! If you want to see what the real odds are, TURN ON THE PREFERENCE to see the odds before your attack! If this happened on a computer turn, and you have a burning need to know, use the scenario editor to set up the identical situation and then play that scenario with the "show me the odds" preference on. Some things that you already know from the manual: The attack strength of the defender and the defense strength of the attacker are irrelevant. The outcome of a battle HAS A RANDOM ELEMENT, so even unlikely things can happen occasionally. For what it's worth, I'll try to compose a worst case scenario: Attacker is infantry, so assume it is attacking a city. Assume no perimeter defense or tachyon field. A+25% Assume attacker is Elite A+50% Assume defender is Very Green D-50% Assume attacker is a Believer A+25% At this point, assume both units have the same number of hit points (same reactor). So the net strengths are 1 * 200% vs. 4 * 50%, or only 1-2. That means that 1 time in 3 the attacker would win this battle. If the attacker has, say, a fusion reactor and the defender has fission, things get a little more complicated because the attacker can suffer damage instead of being destroyed, but then will have lower effectiveness so then it would be more likely to lose overall. So the odds would be something like ((1/3) + (2/3 * 1/5) to (2/3 * 4/5). That's 7/15 to 8/15 or 7-8, so the fusion sentinel would win almost half the time over the fission squad. Got it?
JaimeWolf	posted 03-08-99 06:33 PM ET Man it really gets complicated doesn't it? One more example ... A Disciplined Believer Impact Squad (4-2-1) attacks an Elite Hive Synthmetal Sentinels in a base (with perimeter defense). First up - the only value of the believer's numbers that matters is the attack value - 4. The only value of the Hive that matters is the defense - 2. Then we need to look at modifiers. Believers = +25% Fanatic. Infantry vs. base = +25% Disciplined = +0% 4 + 25% = 5 5 + 25% = 6.25 So the final attack value is 6.25 Hive - no intrinsic bonus Perimeter defense = +100% Elite = +50% 2 + 100% = 4 4 + 50% = 6 So the final defense value is 6 Then when we weigh up the two combatants the odds are 6.25:6 or 25:24 in favour of the attacker. Does that help? The keys are that the attack value of one is compared to the defense value of the other and the bonuses are applied sequentially. Chees James
DarkDragon	posted 03-11-99 10:24 PM ET Alas, you appear to be forgetting a part of combat not calculated into the strengths part... Or so it seems. The projectile/energy/binary things really do make a difference from my opionion, if only they would actually modify the strength value so we could see what's going on with that